Larry Holmes v Greg Page/Gerrie Coetzee

[Flump]

I've done some digging around following on from the Dokes thread and it seems Holmes was unsurprisingly more than willing to fight both Page and Coetzee.

With regards to Page, Holmes was offered a two fight deal by Murad Muhammad for $5 million to fight Frank and Frazier, easy money as it turned out. Holmes threatened to retire from boxing if Don King didn't allow him to take these fights on the proviso that he would defend against Page afterwards. Holmes spoke to Page and he was happy to wait, as he'd make more money against Holmes than he would anybody else, particularly as Page had lost a lot of his stardust by losing to Berbick the previous year. In addition the Frank and Frazier fights were only a couple of months apart so he wouldn't have to wait for too long.

So Holmes beats up Frank but then the WBC orders him to defend immediately against King's fighter Page instead of Frazier, Holmes suspects that King, ever the control freak, has arranged for his compadre Jose Sulaiman to put the brakes on any ideas Holmes would have of any sort of independence. But Holmes instead gives up the WBC title, hammers Frazier and takes on the new IBF belt. Page of course loses to Witherspoon. But business being business it's not long before Holmes works with King again for the Bonecrusher fight.

Now onto Coetzee, and this is more complex but I'll try to keep it brief. Holmes had already turned down a $30 million offer from a South African promoter to fight Coetzee in South Africa due to the apartheid laws of the time. A few months later Kenny Bounds, a businessman and fan of boxing with a few spare quid decided he'd have a bash at being a major boxing promoter and went to Holmes with an offer for $15 million to fight John Tate and Gerrie Coetzee. Tate soon got dropped from the schedule, presumably due to his poor performances since Berbick knocked him out, but the Coetzee offer was still on the table.

Holmes was guaranteed $12 million, of which a non -refundable $3.5 million was paid to Holmes upfront. Bounds then paid Don King an initial $750,000 to give up his option on Coetzee for one fight and then an additional $6.7 million was to be paid later, divided up between Coetzee, Cedric Kushner and Don King. The fight is announced and contracts signed for June 1984 at Caesar's Palace, Las Vegas. The problems is Bounds has not thought this through and is losing money in bundles as he's overestimated what he'd make on TV/closed circuit deals and the live gate. So in short he can't come up with the rest of the money and the fight is cancelled, Coetzee gets knocked out by Page in South Africa and that's the end of that saga.

As for the prospective matchups at that time I see Holmes decisioning Page pretty easily and I see him busting up Coetzee for a stoppage around about round 10.

[Ezzard]

Nice work Flump...

Holmes also fought the winner of Page-Bey. So Greg had an opportunity to get the fight but blew it unfortunately.

Holmes grew up in a very, very poor family. I'm not saying you're wrong but I find it hard to imagine Holmes turning down a $30M offer to fight Coetzee. Larry was motivated by money (okay all fighters are) but there would have been a way to spin the apartheid thing to make it look like Holmes wasn't selling himself out.

I think Coetzee would have caused Holmes a lot of problems. I'd expect Larry to stop him but Gerrie would have had some succes in that bout.

Page would have been a hard fight too (if he was prepared) but Holmes had a grit that most 80s HWs lacked.

[Flump]

Nice work Flump...

Holmes also fought the winner of Page-Bey. So Greg had an opportunity to get the fight but blew it unfortunately.

Holmes grew up in a very, very poor family. I'm not saying you're wrong but I find it hard to imagine Holmes turning down a $30M offer to fight Coetzee. Larry was motivated by money (okay all fighters are) but there would have been a way to spin the apartheid thing to make it look like Holmes wasn't selling himself out.

I think Coetzee would have caused Holmes a lot of problems. I'd expect Larry to stop him but Gerrie would have had some succes in that bout.

Page would have been a hard fight too (if he was prepared) but Holmes had a grit that most 80s HWs lacked.

Thanks Ezzard, Holmes certainly thought about it but was also under political pressure from various human rights organisations and declined. Bey was offered the fight that Page took as well, obviously for a lot less than Holmes would have got, but declined for similar reasons. But Coetzee would have been the better fight, he would have pressured Holmes into putting on a performance I think.

[Robinson]

I would imagine it would have been hard for Holmes to have fought in S Africa at
that time.

It is easy for some here....mr Gran and BRR..to hate on mr Holmes, but at the end
of the day he navigated a complex title landscape. I would have loved to have
more of his fights in my colection against the likes of some of these men.
Holmes vs Page, Coetzee, Tillis, Tucker, Tubbs, Bruno etc would have made for
great wins for the big man and made for more entertaining viewing for me
as I re watch his bouts ad naseum,

[BoxBuzz]

Had he beat those names you mention....it is my confirmed belief that he would receive no more respect from those who go after him here. As you mention many of those names ended up losing various "title eliminator" fights. And what we might consider the lesser name simply earned the right to get the shot with Larry. If Holmes had fought those names instead, the doubting voices here would simply aim their words in that direction.

Don't you think?

[The Great John L]

Had he beat those names you mention....it is my confirmed belief that he would receive no more respect from those who go after him here. As you mention many of those names ended up losing various "title eliminator" fights. And what we might consider the lesser name simply earned the right to get the shot with Larry. If Holmes had fought those names instead, the doubting voices here would simply aim their words in that direction.

Don't you think?

Yes. Of course the fight that didn't happen that I wanted to see was a rematch with Weaver after Weaver pulled his miracle comeback against Tate. It would have been a deserved rematch as well as a true unification.

[raylawpc]

I would imagine it would have been hard for Holmes to have fought in S Africa at
that time.

It is easy for some here....mr Gran and BRR..to hate on mr Holmes, but at the end
of the day he navigated a complex title landscape. I would have loved to have
more of his fights in my colection against the likes of some of these men.
Holmes vs Page, Coetzee, Tillis, Tucker, Tubbs, Bruno etc would have made for
great wins for the big man and made for more entertaining viewing for me
as I re watch his bouts ad naseum,

You are assuming he would have defeated Mssrs. Page, Coetzee, Tillis, Tucker, Tubbs, and Bruno. And Weaver if John L.'s dream rematch had come true. I'm not so sure . . .

[The Great John L]

I would imagine it would have been hard for Holmes to have fought in S Africa at
that time.

It is easy for some here....mr Gran and BRR..to hate on mr Holmes, but at the end
of the day he navigated a complex title landscape. I would have loved to have
more of his fights in my colection against the likes of some of these men.
Holmes vs Page, Coetzee, Tillis, Tucker, Tubbs, Bruno etc would have made for
great wins for the big man and made for more entertaining viewing for me
as I re watch his bouts ad naseum,

You are assuming he would have defeated Mssrs. Page, Coetzee, Tillis, Tucker, Tubbs, and Bruno. And Weaver if John L.'s dream rematch had come true. I'm not so sure . . .

That is a pretty solid lineup to get through, especially if they are all at their best, which for Page and Tubbs might be asking a lot.

Of course, even without those fights, Holmes has a very solid resume. Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Berbick, Snipes, Cooney, Spoon, Smith and Williams were all very solid fighters. Some were past peak and some hadn't quite reached their prime, but it's still one of the best HW title reigns. There isn't enough credit given for the quality of some of the 80's HWs, probably due to the fact that they followed in the footseps of Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Young, etc., but the group taken as whole were actually pretty good.

[dempseyfire]

Tubbs, Tucker, and Bruno didn't really get into the upper stratosphere of the division until after Larry went into semi-retirement (and Tillis never got into that upper category period). Bruno could have had a shot but lost to Smith who Holmes then faced (in an entertaining and forgotten fight BTW). As for Coatzee, I don't see how anyone would ever think he'd have a snowball's chance in hell vs Holmes. Gerrie of course would do well early as he always did but his tendency to fade down the stretch and his vulnerability to counters would make him mince meat.

Page as we all know lost anytime he came close to deserving a shot vs Holmes. Of course the mythical 'in-shape and focused' Page would have given Holmes a very tough fight but unfortunately for Page fans that fighter simply didn't exist.

[dempseyfire]

I would imagine it would have been hard for Holmes to have fought in S Africa at
that time.

It is easy for some here....mr Gran and BRR..to hate on mr Holmes, but at the end
of the day he navigated a complex title landscape. I would have loved to have
more of his fights in my colection against the likes of some of these men.
Holmes vs Page, Coetzee, Tillis, Tucker, Tubbs, Bruno etc would have made for
great wins for the big man and made for more entertaining viewing for me
as I re watch his bouts ad naseum,

You are assuming he would have defeated Mssrs. Page, Coetzee, Tillis, Tucker, Tubbs, and Bruno. And Weaver if John L.'s dream rematch had come true. I'm not so sure . . .

That is a pretty solid lineup to get through, especially if they are all at their best, which for Page and Tubbs might be asking a lot.

Of course, even without those fights, Holmes has a very solid resume. Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Berbick, Snipes, Cooney, Spoon, Smith and Williams were all very solid fighters. Some were past peak and some hadn't quite reached their prime, but it's still one of the best HW title reigns. There isn't enough credit given for the quality of some of the 80's HWs, probably due to the fact that they followed in the footseps of Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Young, etc., but the group taken as whole were actually pretty good.

Compared to the heavyweights circa 2009 that was a golden age.

[Robinson]

I would imagine it would have been hard for Holmes to have fought in S Africa at
that time.

It is easy for some here....mr Gran and BRR..to hate on mr Holmes, but at the end
of the day he navigated a complex title landscape. I would have loved to have
more of his fights in my colection against the likes of some of these men.
Holmes vs Page, Coetzee, Tillis, Tucker, Tubbs, Bruno etc would have made for
great wins for the big man and made for more entertaining viewing for me
as I re watch his bouts ad naseum,

You are assuming he would have defeated Mssrs. Page, Coetzee, Tillis, Tucker, Tubbs, and Bruno. And Weaver if John L.'s dream rematch had come true. I'm not so sure . . .

I assume nothing. I know. ;)
Weaver would have been a worthy rematch.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I would imagine it would have been hard for Holmes to have fought in S Africa at
that time.

It is easy for some here....mr Gran and BRR..to hate on mr Holmes, but at the end
of the day he navigated a complex title landscape.

- HO-HO, hate now is it? I'd scarcely remember Holmes save the Shavers and Snipes KDs and that big goof Cooney arriving in town to create a superfight spectacle in Mr. Larry's otherwise dreary title reign. Poor devil, turned out he dropped Rocky's jockstrap and that of Michael Spinks who avenged his brother Leon twice.

Hate, HO_HO!

Holmes has a very solid resume. Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Berbick, Snipes, Cooney, Spoon, Smith and Williams were all very solid fighters. Some were past peak and some hadn't quite reached their prime, but it's still one of the best HW title reigns. There isn't enough credit given for the quality of some of the 80's HWs, probably due to the fact that they followed in the footseps of Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Young, etc., but the group taken as whole were actually pretty good.

HO-HO, all's well and good in Mr. LarryLand, so, it surely must follow that any of you have said, "Wow, Tyson has a very solid resume with a greatly improved and experienced Berbick, Smith, and Williams." HO_HO, don't think that's what Mr. Larry had in mind while he was doing his Andy Warhol impersonation of crucifix on a canvas.

Addressing the claims of the article created by Mssr. Flumpy, lessee if I got this straight:

1. Mr. Larry gets snippy with his longtime promoter and threatens to take all his toys and go home for retirement if he can't have his candied fights in Scott and Marvis.

2. Mr. Larry gets snippy with his longtime promoter, tosses his ABC belt for a new flavour,

3. Mr. Larry gets snippy and had already turned down a $30 million offer from a South African promoter to fight Coetzee in South Africa due to the apartheid laws of the time, instead fighting more noble and socially worthy humanitarian causes in Marvis and Scott for 5 mil.

4. A snippyless Mr. Larry decides to sign a 12 mil offer to fight a freshly reformed and socially redeemed Coetzee, but fight collapses on shaky finances so Mr. Larry kisses and makes goo-goo faces with his longtime promoter as they both banish Page to the backwaters of South Africa to fight the unredeemable Coetzee, instead taking longtime promoter's newest heavy flavour, The Boncrushable Smith.

5. Conclusion: Mr. Larry decisions Page pretty easily and busts up Coetzee for a stoppage.

Now, when will box rec editors revamp Mr. Larry's record to reflect these epic new discoveries?

[Robinson]

Cooney has 3 losses. All to great champions.
Knock Cooney as much as you like, it is what
hindsight affords us. But in 1982, he was a very
real threat to any man that wore the strap before
or after.

Many would beat him, most certain, but the man
could whack hard.


Ho Ho HO l;)

[Flump]

Addressing the claims of the article created by Mssr. Flumpy, lessee if I got this straight:

1. Mr. Larry gets snippy with his longtime promoter and threatens to take all his toys and go home for retirement if he can't have his candied fights in Scott and Marvis.

2. Mr. Larry gets snippy with his longtime promoter, tosses his ABC belt for a new flavour,

3. Mr. Larry gets snippy and had already turned down a $30 million offer from a South African promoter to fight Coetzee in South Africa due to the apartheid laws of the time, instead fighting more noble and socially worthy humanitarian causes in Marvis and Scott for 5 mil.

4. A snippyless Mr. Larry decides to sign a 12 mil offer to fight a freshly reformed and socially redeemed Coetzee, but fight collapses on shaky finances so Mr. Larry kisses and makes goo-goo faces with his longtime promoter as they both banish Page to the backwaters of South Africa to fight the unredeemable Coetzee, instead taking longtime promoter's newest heavy flavour, The Boncrushable Smith.

5. Conclusion: Mr. Larry decisions Page pretty easily and busts up Coetzee for a stoppage.

Now, when will box rec editors revamp Mr. Larry's record to reflect these epic new discoveries?[/quote]

Err yeah, thanks for that tarzan, you've managed to confirm the facts, do you actually have anything relevant to bring to the party or are you just content to make an ass of yourself? Judging by the way you've conducted yourself so far I suspect the latter, but unlike others I'll give you the chance to actually learn rather than senselessly preach.

[funso banjo baby]

all the greats have a few defences on their record that are a bit dodgy

Holmes fought a combo of ex champs and undefeated contenders and future champs.....its a superb record

hes top 5 ...no question

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Err yeah, thanks for that tarzan, you've managed to confirm the facts, do you actually have anything relevant to bring to the party or are you just content to make an ass of yourself? Judging by the way you've conducted yourself so far I suspect the latter, but unlike others I'll give you the chance to actually learn rather than senselessly preach.

- Why thank you, Jane. Just confirming the facts of the article you so graciously provided that back up the facts as I have long presented to this board, that Mr. Larry ducked a big Coetzee bout in South Africa, preferring soft touches in Scott, Marvis, and many others while also avoiding the challenges of other prime WBA champs like Page who were busy making the tough fights against each other.

At the end of the day, Coetzee was willing to travel to be the first to KO Leon, then come to the states to be jobbed against undefeated Snipes and Thomas before receiving his opportunity against undefeated Dokes. The rejected SA fight offer against Mr. Larry never hindered undefeated Tate, nor Weaver and Page from coming to South Africa to fight for the WBA belt.

It was all good for the WBA champs knowing they were doing their best to fight the best. History is starting to come around and recognize these were prime, formidable, even dangerous talents.

[BoxBuzz]

BRR.....why does your imagined scenario regarding SA always have to do with Larry running in morbid fear? SA at that time was a bit of a legitimate hot potato. You honestly think it's a red herring?

I think this "red herring" seems far more palatable than the tripe your serving up. And the financial aspect of the Cotzee fight coming to Vegas is a confirmed meal deal.

Time for you to order off the menu, because these "blue plate specials" of yours time and again end up being nothing but junk food.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

BRR.....why does your imagined scenario regarding SA always have to do with Larry running in morbid fear? SA at that time was a bit of a legitimate hot potato. You honestly think it's a red herring?

I think this "red herring" seems far more palatable than the tripe your serving up. And the financial aspect of the Cotzee fight coming to Vegas is a confirmed meal deal.

Time for you to order off the menu, because these "blue plate specials" of yours time and again end up being nothing but junk food.

-Why do your odorous crab bait servings continue to remain unregulated by the EPA?

Surely you can provide a single example of me "" always have to do with Larry running in morbid fear? "" Now, I've long admitted to chuckling at Mr. Larry's well marbled derierre hitting the canvas against a certain Mr. Bean, so, pending your research results, we anxiously await awash in baited breath for you to fetch my ""always have to do with Larry running in morbid fear"" quotes.


There were 8 WBA/WBC claimants during Mr. Larry's 7 yr "reign," so his career looks positively moribund in contrast to the refreshing and spectacular manner that young Tyson so quickly unified the WBA/WBC/IBF/Lineal titles with barely more than a fay fuss from the fighters who bothered Mr. Larry so.

[BoxBuzz]

oops...I used exaggeration in this case, you're right and I apologize. I just thought you'd be able to factor that in, and still get my point.

And no actually the EPA has not called me recently....and no one has PM'd me if I have offended...hmm wait a minute here, were you exaggerating? Damn ya got me on that one. I wasn't expecting another exaggeration. You are one clever contributor! Jus' goes to show I'll have to put on the ol' thinking cap when you drop in!

[Flump]

Err yeah, thanks for that tarzan, you've managed to confirm the facts, do you actually have anything relevant to bring to the party or are you just content to make an ass of yourself? Judging by the way you've conducted yourself so far I suspect the latter, but unlike others I'll give you the chance to actually learn rather than senselessly preach.

- Why thank you, Jane. Just confirming the facts of the article you so graciously provided that back up the facts as I have long presented to this board, that Mr. Larry ducked a big Coetzee bout in South Africa, preferring soft touches in Scott, Marvis, and many others while also avoiding the challenges of other prime WBA champs like Page who were busy making the tough fights against each other.

At the end of the day, Coetzee was willing to travel to be the first to KO Leon, then come to the states to be jobbed against undefeated Snipes and Thomas before receiving his opportunity against undefeated Dokes. The rejected SA fight offer against Mr. Larry never hindered undefeated Tate, nor Weaver and Page from coming to South Africa to fight for the WBA belt.

It was all good for the WBA champs knowing they were doing their best to fight the best. History is starting to come around and recognize these were prime, formidable, even dangerous talents.

You're just going to see what you want to see aren't you my little chipstick. Fact is Holmes signed for a Coetzee fight and it fell through over money. He was also going to fight Page if Don King would have stepped aside for a couple of knockover jobs. If you want to blame anybody, blame Don King, he promoted all of them and could have made the matches, or is it all Holmes' fault?

And I'd also be happy to hear how you think Holmes would have fared against Page and Coetzee?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

You're just going to see what you want to see aren't you my little chipstick. Fact is Holmes signed for a Coetzee fight and it fell through over money. He was also going to fight Page if Don King would have stepped aside for a couple of knockover jobs. If you want to blame anybody, blame Don King, he promoted all of them and could have made the matches, or is it all Holmes' fault?

And I'd also be happy to hear how you think Holmes would have fared against Page and Coetzee?

- If we blame King, are we to now also credit King for Mr. Larry's HOF career?

I'm supposed to feel sorry for Mr. Larry for turning down 30 mil to fight Coetzee in South Africa, and later accepting a 15 mil deal to fight him in Vegas? Or that he recieves a 3.5 mil up front guarantee before the fight collapses on shaky finances? Is there anyone else on this board who can confess to receiving 3.5 mil in free money that we should also feel sorry for?

Boy, howdy, sure do wish I could raise my hand now and receive the community hug, boohoohoo........

Let's look early in on Mr. Larry's career after a controversial split over Norton. First defense is Evangelista, but who has Afredo the Great beaten to qualify for such an honour? Turns out he's part of the unholy EBU amigo quartet of of Zanon, Coopman, and Rodriguez that Ali introduces Mr. Larry to. All they have to do is fight each other to qualify for title shots. Afredo beat Rodriguez twice, Coopman, and lost consecutive bouts to Zanon and Ali to qualify him for a Holmes title defense.

OK, Mr. Larry needed a breather after a life and death struggle against Norton, so who comes after Alfredo? After a controversial "split" over Young in Vegas, Baby Ocasio takes him to Puerto Rico and does virtually nothing offensively, but makes off like a bandit with the hometown decision. The gushing Holmes fluffs up his former spar mate and brags about already being in training for the awesome Ossie who ate a hundred body shots from Young. No time for Ossie recovery since the defense is fast tracked 7 weeks later.

Next in the queue? 19-8 Weaver who had never even beat a single fringe contender. 3 of the softest defenses in heavy history to open his title reign. Can you imagine the outrage if Tyson's first defenses had been of such schoolboy fare?

How would Holmes fare against Coetzee and Page? At their best they could whip the pants off Mr. Larry and Coetzee had a right that could KO him. They never got the chance to fail though.

Who did Mr. Larry struggle with in his defenses? It was Shavers, Snipes, Cooney, Spoon, and Williams. Coetzee/Page at their best are quite a bit more capable than Shavers, Snipes and Williams. Many would argue that Williams and Spoon actually beat Mr. Larry, and as pointed out, before exhaustion and losing form that penalized him with multiple fouls, Cooney was comprehensively outboxing Mr. Larry on the cards.

Like I stated previous, and I ain't alone in this, usually when I saw Mr. Larry defend, I always asked why he wasn't fighting one of the WBA champs who were usually of superior quality fighting superior opponents than the undefeated Franks and Marvises conjured up by King. Remember, we're blaming King.

If Mr. Larry was this mythical, talented greatest of the greats class fighter, how is it he's nowhere to be seen in the golden 70s era of his peers until 1978? How did he manage to skip unification against the dozen other prime,. talented ABC champs of the 80s. I see the fine form and fighting spirit, but just not against many of his era peers.

Didn't even get to see what I wanted to see, and now I got you telling me I only see what I want to see? Whatever dude. Mr. Larry has his cult of true believers that shout down the infidel unbelievers. Whatever........

[Flump]

{/quote}- If we blame King, are we to now also credit King for Mr. Larry's HOF career?

I'm supposed to feel sorry for Mr. Larry for turning down 30 mil to fight Coetzee in South Africa, and later accepting a 15 mil deal to fight him in Vegas? Or that he recieves a 3.5 mil up front guarantee before the fight collapses on shaky finances? Is there anyone else on this board who can confess to receiving 3.5 mil in free money that we should also feel sorry for?

Boy, howdy, sure do wish I could raise my hand now and receive the community hug, boohoohoo........

Let's look early in on Mr. Larry's career after a controversial split over Norton. First defense is Evangelista, but who has Afredo the Great beaten to qualify for such an honour? Turns out he's part of the unholy EBU amigo quartet of of Zanon, Coopman, and Rodriguez that Ali introduces Mr. Larry to. All they have to do is fight each other to qualify for title shots. Afredo beat Rodriguez twice, Coopman, and lost consecutive bouts to Zanon and Ali to qualify him for a Holmes title defense.

OK, Mr. Larry needed a breather after a life and death struggle against Norton, so who comes after Alfredo? After a controversial "split" over Young in Vegas, Baby Ocasio takes him to Puerto Rico and does virtually nothing offensively, but makes off like a bandit with the hometown decision. The gushing Holmes fluffs up his former spar mate and brags about already being in training for the awesome Ossie who ate a hundred body shots from Young. No time for Ossie recovery since the defense is fast tracked 7 weeks later.

Next in the queue? 19-8 Weaver who had never even beat a single fringe contender. 3 of the softest defenses in heavy history to open his title reign. Can you imagine the outrage if Tyson's first defenses had been of such schoolboy fare?

How would Holmes fare against Coetzee and Page? At their best they could whip the pants off Mr. Larry and Coetzee had a right that could KO him. They never got the chance to fail though.

Who did Mr. Larry struggle with in his defenses? It was Shavers, Snipes, Cooney, Spoon, and Williams. Coetzee/Page at their best are quite a bit more capable than Shavers, Snipes and Williams. Many would argue that Williams and Spoon actually beat Mr. Larry, and as pointed out, before exhaustion and losing form that penalized him with multiple fouls, Cooney was comprehensively outboxing Mr. Larry on the cards.

Like I stated previous, and I ain't alone in this, usually when I saw Mr. Larry defend, I always asked why he wasn't fighting one of the WBA champs who were usually of superior quality fighting superior opponents than the undefeated Franks and Marvises conjured up by King. Remember, we're blaming King.

If Mr. Larry was this mythical, talented greatest of the greats class fighter, how is it he's nowhere to be seen in the golden 70s era of his peers until 1978? How did he manage to skip unification against the dozen other prime,. talented ABC champs of the 80s. I see the fine form and fighting spirit, but just not against many of his era peers.

Didn't even get to see what I wanted to see, and now I got you telling me I only see what I want to see? Whatever dude. Mr. Larry has his cult of true believers that shout down the infidel unbelievers. Whatever........[/quote]

King is the sports' premier promoter of the last 30 years, in fairness he deserves some praise, but I think Holmes prospered in spite of King, not because of him.

Who says anybody should feel sorry for Holmes? You seem to have invented that one yourself. I certainly don't feel sorry for him.

Certainly he had his share of soft challengers like anybody with 20 defences, Ocasio was unbeaten and as you point out had just beaten the then ranked Young twice, so he had some credentials going in. He also drew with Dokes two fights later, the same Dokes who Larry apparently avoided. And I would say 7 weeks is plenty to get ready for a fight. As for Weaver, didn't he knock out Tate and Coetzee shortly afterwards, two more in the avoided queue. It's also interesting to see that Holmes defended his title against 10 fighters with unbeaten records, surely some sort of record in itself.

You've certainly gone out on a limb stating that Page and Coetzee could have knocked the pants off Holmes, I wonder if anybody agrees with you?

King promoted 17 Holmes title defences, you don't think he had some say in the opposition?! He also promoted the WBA champions from Dokes onwards so why wasn't he making unification matches? I mean Holmes was happy enough to fight the likes of Norton, Shavers twice, Cooney and a quartet of future 80's titlists in Weaver, Berbick,Witherspoon and Smith and he also agreed fights with Page and Coetzee, fights which didn't happen through no fault of his own, so was Holmes running scared?

You didn't see him until 78 because he was learning his trade, are you telling me he should have been fighting Norton & Shavers in 75'?!

It would have been nice if he'd have fought Dokes, Coetzee etc but the fact is the boxing politics of the time prevented these matchups from happening, that and they uncanny way these guys managed to lose just when the public might have been interested in seeing them fight Holmes.

We all have our favourites BRR, didn't I see you post once that the Klitschko's are as naturally talented as any heavyweight in history??

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

You've certainly gone out on a limb stating that Page and Coetzee could have knocked the pants off Holmes, I wonder if anybody agrees with you?

King promoted 17 Holmes title defences, you don't think he had some say in the opposition?! He also promoted the WBA champions from Dokes onwards so why wasn't he making unification matches? I mean Holmes was happy enough to fight the likes of Norton, Shavers twice, Cooney and a quartet of future 80's titlists in Weaver, Berbick,Witherspoon and Smith and he also agreed fights with Page and Coetzee, fights which didn't happen through no fault of his own, so was Holmes running scared?

You didn't see him until 78 because he was learning his trade, are you telling me he should have been fighting Norton & Shavers in 75'?!

It would have been nice if he'd have fought Dokes, Coetzee etc but the fact is the boxing politics of the time prevented these matchups from happening, that and they uncanny way these guys managed to lose just when the public might have been interested in seeing them fight Holmes.

We all have our favourites BRR, didn't I see you post once that the Klitschko's are as naturally talented as any heavyweight in history??

- Seeing how a past prime Shavers and a prime Snipes were one more punch from beating Holmes, t'aint a stretch to imagine the more naturally talented Coetzee and Page finding that extra punch. Cooney was beating him but was just too poorly trained and prepared to have enough stamina to go 7 extra rounds past his longest fight against an easy setup journeyman.

I would remind you that Holmes is to be blamed for not agreeing to fight Coetzee for the initial big 30 mil offer. Those fights went to Weaver, Tate, and Page instead. You blaming Page and Coetzee for losing as the reason why Holmes wouldn't defend or unify against them is self serving. 19-8 Weaver, Zanon, and Rodriguez or have you forgotten your history lesson already?

Yes, the Klitschkos have as fine a collection of talent and natural attributes as any heavies in history, but it's been a challenge for them getting title shots. Remember, Lewis sold WBA and IBF to King, and he still controls the WBA mess with his endless rotating stable of recycled inhouse challengers. Neither brother will fight Valuev until his contract with King runs out. That's the only reason Wlad rematched Byrd.

Regardless, you saw how quickly Wlad moved to replace Haye with WBA champ Chagaev when presented the opportunity. It happens that some fights get left on the table for whatever political reason, but more than a dozen prime era names missing from Mr. Larry's record?

Evangelista, Ocasio, and Weaver were not bigger fights than the Norton rematch for example.

Hey, them's red flags by my reckoning, so I calls it likes I sees it.

[The Great John L]

...Yes, the Klitschkos have as fine a collection of talent and natural attributes as any heavies in history...

Yep, this guy sure knows his boxing.

[BoxBuzz]

John L, I'll not hear another implied cross word spoken against the K bros whils't one of these poor lads is seeking medical assistance due to the ravages of a weary shoulder. Not only that, both brothers were both forced to endure threatened beheadings by a rough young light heavy that certainly scared them both silly. They have and are suffering enough, and your added disrespect is not appreciated by those who know and care for this great boxing dynasty.