Louis v Conn I Discussion

[Seamus]

I was watching this fight recently, and so decided due in part to the fact that Louis may be the consensus favorite as greatest heavyweight of alltime on this forum, to ask the question "Is this fight a serious blot on the record of Joe Louis" ? The 27 year old Brown Bomber got rocked and at times embarrased by a 174 lb Lightheavyweight not known for his punching power.

[Flump]

You can look at it two ways I guess, Louis on his way to defeat against a light heavy who was so confident of winning he went for the knockout when ahead on points, or one of the great come from behind KO's in a classic match.

I prefer to think about it as the latter, Conn was a talented fighter, the weight difference was not huge and Louis got the result ultimately.

[Robinson]

And it illustrates the dangers of over confidence, in assuming an opponent can not
hurt you....and to take even your smallest threat serious.

[My2Sense]

I was watching this fight recently, and so decided due in part to the fact that Louis may be the consensus favorite as greatest heavyweight of alltime on this forum, to ask the question "Is this fight a serious blot on the record of Joe Louis" ?

No. He survived some rocky moments to decisively KO an ATG and leading HW contender(regardless of size) who had never before been counted out. Moreover, he defeated him easily in a return bout.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I was watching this fight recently, and so decided due in part to the fact that Louis may be the consensus favorite as greatest heavyweight of alltime on this forum, to ask the question "Is this fight a serious blot on the record of Joe Louis" ? The 27 year old Brown Bomber got rocked and at times embarrased by a 174 lb Lightheavyweight not known for his punching power.

- Always heard Louis overtrained trying to get his weight below 200 so he wouldn't look so much like the big bully picking on little Conn.

Conn actually had a good style to fluster Louis who was not used to that style and speed. Walcott also used a lot of footwork and in and out to good success. Joe closed the show and gave a rematch as soon as humanly possible as he did in any close call for a rematch. That sets him above every heavy.

Ali had so many stinkers it wasn't funny anymore by the end of his career, so why Louis is singled out for closing the show and doing it again is beyond me other than some will play favorites and not judge fairly.

[Seamus]

Because Louis was 27 yrs old and fighting an actual as opposed to former Light Heavyweight. Could you imagine if some guy did this against a prime Mike Tyson ? Frankly, I think hell freezes over before Billy Conn makes it into the 13th against Iron Mike. And yet we have more than a few posters who think Louis would KO Tyson.

[dempseyfire]

I could easily see Conn giving Tyson the same trouble, if not more.

Conn was an ATG light heavyweight who also defeated several top HW contenders. Louis came in overconfident and clearly had an off-night (not everyone shines in every fight, especially with Louis's VERY active schedule as champion).

Hard to see it as blot on Joe considering he won the fight by KO.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Because Louis was 27 yrs old and fighting an actual as opposed to former Light Heavyweight. Could you imagine if some guy did this against a prime Mike Tyson ? Frankly, I think hell freezes over before Billy Conn makes it into the 13th against Iron Mike. And yet we have more than a few posters who think Louis would KO Tyson.

Apparently, Conn wasn't the boxer Douglas was --- the same Douglas who dropped only one round in outboxing & outpunching Tyson utterly...& please, no, "Mike's prime was past" nonsense. I can't bear that logic, anymore.

[My2Sense]

Because Louis was 27 yrs old and fighting an actual as opposed to former Light Heavyweight. Could you imagine if some guy did this against a prime Mike Tyson ? Frankly, I think hell freezes over before Billy Conn makes it into the 13th against Iron Mike. And yet we have more than a few posters who think Louis would KO Tyson.

Is struggling in one of two KO wins over an ATG light-heavy (who was rated as the #1 HW contender) worse than having a close fight with a washed up ex-contender, getting completely outclassed by a flabby journeyman whose mother had just died, or getting outclassed again by an old, comebacking ex-champ with a heart condition?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Dempsey touched on it, but the fact it was Louis' fourth defense that year could've played a role.

I think people drastically over-play this fight against Louis, & I think it's harsh to count it as a, "blemish on his record" --- Conn was a brilliant, brilliant fighter at any weight, but it does show Louis had weaknesses. Perhaps not many, but this fight hurts his image a little bit. Just, in my view, nowhere near to the extent many would have us believe.

[Robinson]

He KOd the fleet footed smaller man. An agile smaller opponent is often
harder to deal with than a massive hard hitter at times. Louis caught up
with him in the end, and perhaps leading up to it thought he would easily
stop Conn, who most likely trained extremely hard to win the big mans
belt.

Nothing to be ashamed of for either man.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Because Louis was 27 yrs old and fighting an actual as opposed to former Light Heavyweight. Could you imagine if some guy did this against a prime Mike Tyson ? Frankly, I think hell freezes over before Billy Conn makes it into the 13th against Iron Mike. And yet we have more than a few posters who think Louis would KO Tyson.

- Last I checked there was only one Tyson, the most one off primed talent you'll ever see.

Don't understand how come some have never figured out that styles and natural attributes are the biggest determining factors in any prime to prime match up. Joe was slow footed and outspeeded. Foster was able to cut up Ali and last into the 8th round, coming as close to a stoppage win as Conn was aiming for. Yet Foster unable to see the end of the 2nd against prime Frazier who had the footspeed and techniques to pursue, trap, and the power to obliterate Foster.

Conn would not have lasted long against Dempsey or Frazier, but might prove very frustrating in the early going to a Lewis or Klitschko. He'd have no fear of being KOed by Mr. Larry and would hang in the pocket frusterating him to death. Fully capable of picking off Jack Johnson from outside and could outmaneveur Jeff all night assuming fatigue wasn't a factor. Not saying he would win any or all those fights, but he could cause an upset, and if a Jersey Joe, Willard, Baer, Leon can hold a title, Conn is a class above them, only lacking the right era with an easier opponent to go up against.

[Flump]

Because Louis was 27 yrs old and fighting an actual as opposed to former Light Heavyweight. Could you imagine if some guy did this against a prime Mike Tyson ? Frankly, I think hell freezes over before Billy Conn makes it into the 13th against Iron Mike. And yet we have more than a few posters who think Louis would KO Tyson.

- Last I checked there was only one Tyson, the most one off primed talent you'll ever see.

Don't understand how come some have never figured out that styles and natural attributes are the biggest determining factors in any prime to prime match up. Joe was slow footed and outspeeded. Foster was able to cut up Ali and last into the 8th round, coming as close to a stoppage win as Conn was aiming for. Yet Foster unable to see the end of the 2nd against prime Frazier who had the footspeed and techniques to pursue, trap, and the power to obliterate Foster.

Conn would not have lasted long against Dempsey or Frazier, but might prove very frustrating in the early going to a Lewis or Klitschko. He'd have no fear of being KOed by Mr. Larry and would hang in the pocket frusterating him to death. Fully capable of picking off Jack Johnson from outside and could outmaneveur Jeff all night assuming fatigue wasn't a factor. Not saying he would win any or all those fights, but he could cause an upset, and if a Jersey Joe, Willard, Baer, Leon can hold a title, Conn is a class above them, only lacking the right era with an easier opponent to go up against.

Can you explain that comment mate? Did you think Ali was close to being stopped?

[Mr E]

I think Louis would always have had trouble with guys who could move and who could beat him to the punch off the jab because he liked to find his range, set, and fire.

But you can't look at only one side -- those guys would always have had trouble with Louis, too, because it really only took one mistake over the course of 15 rounds for Louis to find you -- and once that happened, that was usually all she wrote.

I think Louis took Conn lightly in the first fight. Before the fight, if the stories are to be believed, he was more worried about coming in under 200, so as not to appear too much a bully, than he was about losing. Consequently, I don't think he really went after Conn early on with as much intensity as he could have/would ordinarily have, which allowed Conn to win a few easy rounds without expending too much energy, whereupon his confidence soared. My personal opinion is that, had Louis realized how good Conn was going in (and make no mistake, Conn was a HELL of a great light-heavyweight), Louis would have approached the fight differently and, I believe, gotten Conn out of there a little earlier.

[Goodnight, Irene]

People forget how close the fight was, too. It was certainly a competitive battle. Some of the distorted sh!t you hear from people about the, "ass-whooping" Conn was handing Louis is remarkably prevalent --- & remarkably wrong.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Can you explain that comment mate? Did you think Ali was close to being stopped?

- How many fights did Ali win on cuts, maybe 2 dozen?

If he's cut up by midrounds, don't take a rocket scientist to figure out he's got a long slog through slings and arrows to make it thru to the end of 15. Probably why Ali got to Foster when he did, he felt he had to.

[Seamus]

YES ! Louis v Conn was a close fight, but I think it was clear that Conn was winning. Louis landed several shots throughout the bout, and this in particular is what I see as an embarassment for him. Whether it be Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Bowe,Ruddock Bruno, Morrison etc. You give them a shot or two on a 174 lb fighter and it's going to be lights out.

[Goodnight, Irene]

YES ! Louis v Conn was a close fight, but I think it was clear that Conn was winning. Louis landed several shots throughout the bout, and this in particular is what I see as an embarassment for him. Whether it be Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Bowe,Ruddock Bruno, Morrison etc. You give them a shot or two on a 174 lb fighter and it's going to be lights out.

I like to think of it as analogous to De La Hoya-Mosley I...there's no doubt one guy is deservedly on top, but he's working hard for his advantage, & taking fire & flow in return.

Revisionist history sees this as more like a drawn out version of Whitaker-Chavez or Lewis-Holyfield I, sadly.

[Flump]

Can you explain that comment mate? Did you think Ali was close to being stopped?

- How many fights did Ali win on cuts, maybe 2 dozen?

If he's cut up by midrounds, don't take a rocket scientist to figure out he's got a long slog through slings and arrows to make it thru to the end of 15. Probably why Ali got to Foster when he did, he felt he had to.

Right..

[ThatOne]

Can you explain that comment mate? Did you think Ali was close to being stopped?

- How many fights did Ali win on cuts, maybe 2 dozen?

If he's cut up by midrounds, don't take a rocket scientist to figure out he's got a long slog through slings and arrows to make it thru to the end of 15. Probably why Ali got to Foster when he did, he felt he had to.

Right..

Close to being stopped???????

Ali knocked him down eight times... As for the cut...It was a "fine cut" over the right eye. Does Ali have the mug of someonw who was cut up frequently?


Watch the fight on youtube. His face is virtually unmarked after the fight.

[dempseyfire]

Whether it be Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Bowe,Ruddock Bruno, Morrison etc. You give them a shot or two on a 174 lb fighter and it's going to be lights out.

And you know this because . . . . .

Light heavyweights spar with heavyweights all of the time. Heavyweights hit hard but it's not like the 30 plus extra lbs suddenly equates to them knocking out anyone smaller.

[elmersalsa]

I think it was voted as The Fight of the Decade by The Ring. What a fight it was. Both of them were super great that night. This is a classic example of the great big boxer beats the great small boxer most of the time.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Close to being stopped???????

Ali knocked him down eight times... As for the cut...It was a "fine cut" over the right eye. Does Ali have the mug of someonw who was cut up frequently?

Watch the fight on youtube. His face is virtually unmarked after the fight.

- I mentioned the cut and said Foster came as close to a stoppage as Conn was aiming for. Never said anything about either fight actually being close to stoppage. As far as the KDs of Foster, he said Ali couldn't bust a grape and that he was going down because of fatigue.

Vitali's cut against Lewis started out as an imperceptible 2 inch "paper cut" from a trailing edge of tape of a missed Lewis right hand. Within 2 rounds it was the most graphic cut ever seen on color TV to my knowledge, the only cut Vitali's ever had in his career.

Anyone dismissing a fighter's chances once he has his guy cut needs more than youtube. The clue was the number of fights Ali won on cuts that I provided. Foster had a slicing jab and won his fair share of cut victories as well, just not that one.

[pound per pound]

I was watching this fight recently, and so decided due in part to the fact that Louis may be the consensus favorite as greatest heavyweight of alltime on this forum, to ask the question "Is this fight a serious blot on the record of Joe Louis" ? The 27 year old Brown Bomber got rocked and at times embarrased by a 174 lb Lightheavyweight not known for his punching power.

The Louis vs. Conn match is a clear example of a style Louis had trouble with. Since Louis won, its not a belmish on his record, but I think it is a belimish to those who feel Louis was the best of all time.

[ThatOne]

Anybody who thinks Bob Foster had Muhammad Ali in as much trouble as Billy Conn had Joe Louis in has watched as much boxing as the Dalai Lana. All Ali did was drop Foster eight times on the way to a eight round KO. I don't think Foster even won a round.

BTW, Foster said Ali was the fastest fighter he ever met and that was the post exile Ali.