Willie Pep: How Good Was He After The Plane Crash?

[Mr E]

I'm curious as to the consensus here: How much did Willie Pep lose after his plane crash? Anything? He broke his back, so it's hard for me to imagine he was ever quite the same; on the other, he sure posted some remarkable results.

Would pre-crash Pep have done better than 1-3 v. Sandy Saddler?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Pre-crash Pep goes 3-1 against Saddler, instead of 1-3. His results post-crash belie the grave nature of his injuries.

People routinely under-estimate how much damage was done to the man. He was the better fighter of the two, & that would've been reflected had they had their fights before the accident.

Pep's remarkable, absolutely remarkable, to bounce back as he did. With those injuries, to beat an absolute all-timer in Saddler is the stuff of legend.

[Mr E]

Pre-crash Pep goes 3-1 against Saddler, instead of 1-3. His results post-crash belie the grave nature of his injuries.

People routinely under-estimate how much damage was done to the man. He was the better fighter of the two, & that would've been reflected had they had their fights before the accident.

Pep's remarkable, absolutely remarkable, to bounce back as he did. With those injuries, to beat an absolute all-timer in Saddler is the stuff of legend.

My instinct is that you're likely right about that; it makes intuitive sense.

As far as I am aware, none of Pep's pre-crash fights was filmed; certainly, I've seen none. I'd like to hear what his contemporaries -- people who saw him train and fight -- said about how well he recovered. If he made back even 90% that would have been remarkable.

[TheGreatA]

My instinct is that you're likely right about that; it makes intuitive sense.

As far as I am aware, none of Pep's pre-crash fights was filmed; certainly, I've seen none. I'd like to hear what his contemporaries -- people who saw him train and fight -- said about how well he recovered. If he made back even 90% that would have been remarkable.

Here's some film of a young Willie Pep:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNhKyvrGp_4

[Mr E]

My instinct is that you're likely right about that; it makes intuitive sense.

As far as I am aware, none of Pep's pre-crash fights was filmed; certainly, I've seen none. I'd like to hear what his contemporaries -- people who saw him train and fight -- said about how well he recovered. If he made back even 90% that would have been remarkable.

Here's some film of a young Willie Pep:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNhKyvrGp_4

Fascinating -- thanks for posting that link.

[bollox]

"first you lose your legs. then you lose your reflexes. then you lose your frianed" - Willie Pep

[Scypion]

Willie Pep said that he lost his chin because of the plane crash and had to fight more defensively, I believe that he lost some of his punching power as evidenced that he won by KO or TKO in 8 of his last 9 fights prior to the crash. He never came close to that (8 of 9 KO's or TKO's) afterwards.

I think that if there was not any clinching, Pep would have won his last couple of fights against Saddler. Saddler would clinch and then beat up Pep in the clinches (holding and hitting is supposed to be illegal). Willie would outbox Sandy until they clinched. At least that is the way it looked to me.

[gilgamesh]

That's a widely misunderstood rule. If you're in a clinch and each man has 1 arm free. The referee ideally encourages you to fight out of the clinch. At a certain point you'd break the fighters, but ideally they'd break themselves apart.

If 1 of them is punching. The other must have a free arm also.

[goose 5]

You're exactly right but a lot of refs don't apply the rule correctly.

[gilgamesh]

More of them did back in the days of Pep and Saddler

[Scypion]

That's a widely misunderstood rule. If you're in a clinch and each man has 1 arm free. The referee ideally encourages you to fight out of the clinch. At a certain point you'd break the fighters, but ideally they'd break themselves apart.

If 1 of them is punching. The other must have a free arm also.

I don't think that Saddler was punching to break free of the clinch. He would clinch and kill Pep in the clinches.

[Seamus]

Before the crash, I'd put him at arguably the best fighter of alltime. Doesn't mean he was, just that he has an argument.

[gilgamesh]

That's a widely misunderstood rule. If you're in a clinch and each man has 1 arm free. The referee ideally encourages you to fight out of the clinch. At a certain point you'd break the fighters, but ideally they'd break themselves apart.

If 1 of them is punching. The other must have a free arm also.

I don't think that Saddler was punching to break free of the clinch. He would clinch and kill Pep in the clinches.

Did Pep have a free arm to attempt to break himself free?

[Scypion]

Maybe sometimes.

[Scypion]

I think that Pep could have fought at bantamweight if he wanted to, but featherweight was the more prestigious and lucrative division, and he could beat anyone in that division anyway, at least until he met Sandy Saddler.

By the third or fourth bout between Pep and Saddler, I don't think that Saddler was even trying to box Pep, preferring to grab and clinch Willie and then keep blasting Pep in the clinches (legal or illegal). It looked that way to me.

[gilgamesh]

That's just good strategy on Saddler's part. Grab him. Take that slick defense away and hammer him.

You gotta play to your strengths.

[Scypion]

To answer the original question: Willie said that he lost his chin due to the plane crash. Evidence of this is that he was never KO'd or stopped in 110 bouts before the plane crash. Stopped or KO'd 6 times after.

I think that he lost some punching power due to the plane crash. Evidence of that is that he stopped or KO'd 8 of his previous 9 opponents prior to the plane crash. Never a streak like that after.

Would he have done better against Saddler if no plane crash? I don't know, but he was better before the crash.

[gilgamesh]

I don't know if his chin would've gotten any worse, but I can definitely imagine that his movement, and defense was severely hindered after the plane crash which definitely would've caused him to get hit a lot more often, which obviously isn't doing your chin any favors.

[Scypion]

That could be.

[Scypion]

I guess that Willie Pep was so good that after the Saddler fights, he was accused of throwing fights every time he was knocked out or stopped. In 1952 he lost on a TKO by Tommy Collins, and was immediately accused of taking a dive. Nothing was ever proven.

The big one was his TKO (3 knockdown rule) by Lulu Perez in 1954. One thing was that Perez became the betting favorite before the bout. Pep really looked like he was hurt at the end of the bout, but I suppose he could have been acting.

Actually, Lulu Perez had a pretty good record going into his fight with Pep. He had 28 wins with 2 losses by decision, both of which he avenged in rematches. His 28 wins included 12 KO's or stoppages. So, he was off to a pretty good start and looked to be a future contender, if he wasn't one already.

I think that many still to this day think that Willie took a dive in that fight, even though it was Pep's 190th bout, so there was a lot of ring wear on him at about 32 years of age, and those Saddler fights probably took something out of him to say nothing about his plane crash.

If the fix was in, then Lulu Perez sure did not appear to know about it because he was one happy guy after the fight. Maybe some people considered him to be a real comer with his record and KO's and never being stopped himself. Maybe some people could really see something in the 20 year old kid, hence the big bets on him. Perez also won the New York Golden Gloves Tournament of Champions as an amateur.

About 10 months later, Perez knocked out Tommy Collins in the 2nd round. His next bout after that was against non other than Sandy Saddler in which he was KO'd. Lulu Perez's boxing career went downhill after that.