Why Lennox Lewis is the greatest

[ben geoghegan]

Fought every top heavyweight who would fight him. The one who didn't, Riddick Bowe, openly ducked him. And he stopped him in the amateurs also, which isn't a pro fight but it's still a fight. Bowe was terrified of Lennox Lewis.

Didn't retire to avoid anyone.

Didn't retire because the money dried up in the sport. And he wasn't a popular champion. He had to fight all over the map to make money, not popular enough for the strip.

Didn't fight on for money. He didn't have to, he accomplished everything and saved his winnings.

Never avoided anyone because of skin color from Mavrovic to Akinwande.

Never conjured an excuse to explain his losses. Only wiped them out with convincing rematches.

Both of his losses were flukes as evidenced by the decisive and quick KO's in the rematches. And the palpable fear of both men, McCall and Rahman, in knowing they were lucky, and were not in Lewis' class.

He had some tough and close fights but no fair judge can say he was ever given a gift. The only people who argue that Mercer or Mavrovic beat him are people who just don't like the man.

There are more exciting boxers, more popular boxers, and more storied boxers. And people can pretend about boxing all they want. He has no memorable nickname like others. He didn't throw money away like water and live recklessly like most. But the best on pure merit truly is Lennox Lewis. In fantasy matchups, the only fantasy is the notion that anyone classes over him.

[jimglen]

Boxings been around a long time son!

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ben Geoghegan...

"Fought every top heavyweight who would fight him. The one who didn't, Riddick Bowe, openly ducked him. And he stopped him in the amateurs also, which isn't a pro fight but it's still a fight. Bowe was terrified of Lennox Lewis..."

Yes, he did. Significant credit for that, but bringing up an amateur fight for his legacy --- moreover, one which was poorly officiated &, in the eyes of many (myself, among them) prematurely stopped? I mean, Tszyu beat Forrest (more decisively) in the ams, no one's including that in his resume. Lewis isn't getting legacy credit for that one.

"...Didn't retire to avoid anyone..."

Along with virtually every great HW champion who ever lived, mind...

"Didn't retire because the money dried up in the sport. And he wasn't a popular champion. He had to fight all over the map to make money, not popular enough for the strip..."

I fail to see how being unpopular or retiring for one reason or another adds to his claim to being the greatest...?

"Didn't fight on for money. He didn't have to, he accomplished everything and saved his winnings..."

Again, this is part of legacy judgement? Hardly relevant.

"...Never avoided anyone because of skin color from Mavrovic to Akinwande..."

Pretty selective judgement. You're ignoring era-context, colour lines & such. You can't pretend these things aren't factors, as much as some members here seem to want to.

"...Never conjured an excuse to explain his losses. Only wiped them out with convincing rematches..."

How great you rests on how great you fight. No one gets points for being a good sport.

"...Both of his losses were flukes as evidenced by the decisive and quick KO's in the rematches. And the palpable fear of both men, McCall and Rahman, in knowing they were lucky, and were not in Lewis' class..."

The losses were indeed upsets, but that doesn't detract from the fact they happened. Are you going to consider upset losses for all the champs?

"He had some tough and close fights but no fair judge can say he was ever given a gift. The only people who argue that Mercer or Mavrovic beat him are people who just don't like the man..."

He never got a gift (an arguable decision, at best, & only one, perhaps two, of those), so this does add to his legacy. He usually won convincingly.

"...There are more exciting boxers, more popular boxers, and more storied boxers. And people can pretend about boxing all they want. He has no memorable nickname like others. He didn't throw money away like water and live recklessly like most. But the best on pure merit truly is Lennox Lewis. In fantasy matchups, the only fantasy is the notion that anyone classes over him."

To finalise your opening line in this paragraph, simply put, there are also better boxers. He doesn't have the competition or the talent to be the greatest. He's great, & he had a great career --- but he falls short of number one, both in competition & hypothetically. He loses his share of mythicals, & wins his share, IMO.

It's a pretty weak case (not pointing at yours, just saying generally) for Lewis as #1 all-time at Heavyweight. IMO, top-five would be far-fetched, at that. Maybe not impossible, but close as it comes.

[ben geoghegan]

Lewis trashed Bowe in the Olympics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z7wFR8dJYg I won't even dignify the early stop claim. Anyone can see how Lewis came out ripping punches in the 2nd, hurting Bowe repeatedly. And Bowe senselessly puts his hands way over his head. The first time the ref gave him a pass.

McCall was crying and walking away because of Lewis.

The only thing Lewis isn't guilty of is not being born 100 years ago.

Lewis fought great in great fights also. Ruddock, Mercer and Mavrovic were exciting.

There isn't five heavyweights in history who can credibly defeat him. You take them at their best you have to take Lewis at his.

When the argument goes to how many "mythical" matchups he loses, argument over. Thats when you know a person just don't have much credible material to go on. Shoddy stuff.

[Grimm]

I think Lewis is great and all not the greatest though anyway who in the hell thought Mavrović won that fight?

[funso banjo baby]

lewis is up there

but lets compare the 2 ko losses.

it could be argued that Larry Holmes was hit just as hard by Snipes and Shavers and Weaver. Flush on the noggin.

but Holmes got up again and won.

so wherever you put Lennox in the top rankings...he's got to be behind Holmes.

[jezzamundo]

lewis is up there

but lets compare the 2 ko losses.

it could be argued that Larry Holmes was hit just as hard by Snipes and Shavers and Weaver. Flush on the noggin.

but Holmes got up again and won.

so wherever you put Lennox in the top rankings...he's got to be behind Holmes.

I 100% disagree with this notion. Although I do rate Holmes (#3) higher than Lewis (#7 or #8) in terms of greatness, I do think that people overstate the importance of Lewis's two KO losses. These are not the main reason he is not the greatest of all-time, it is because he never beat a truly great opponent in their prime. He has some brilliant wins on his record, but unfortunately there is nothing to equal Ali's wins over Frazier, Foreman or Liston.

I rate greatness based on a combination of career accomplishments, and who-beats-who, with a greater weighting on career accomplishments. I feel that based on who-beats-who, Lewis places higher, as I think he beats Foreman, Marciano and Frazier, who I rate as greater boxers due to their accomplishments. Lewis in his prime would present serious problems to any heavyweight in history, but he would certainly lose to a few, while beating most.

In reply to the comments made in the first post:

- Lewis certainly gets credit for fighting everyone he could have, being ducked and retiring on-top.
- He also gets credit for beating Bowe, although not a fraction of the credit he would have got had he beaten him as a pro.
- No one credible thinks that Mavrovic beat Lewis, that was a clear win for Lewis, although a poor performance for him.
- Lewis-Mercer was a very close fight. I think that anything from 96-94 Lewis to 96-94 Mercer is acceptable. Lewis fought bravely but was lucky to get the nod. A draw would have been a very fair result.

By the way, Lennox is my favourite heavyweight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Lewis trashed Bowe in the Olympics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z7wFR8dJYg I won't even dignify the early stop claim. Anyone can see how Lewis came out ripping punches in the 2nd, hurting Bowe repeatedly. And Bowe senselessly puts his hands way over his head. The first time the ref gave him a pass.

McCall was crying and walking away because of Lewis.

The only thing Lewis isn't guilty of is not being born 100 years ago.

Lewis fought great in great fights also. Ruddock, Mercer and Mavrovic were exciting.

There isn't five heavyweights in history who can credibly defeat him. You take them at their best you have to take Lewis at his.

When the argument goes to how many "mythical" matchups he loses, argument over. Thats when you know a person just don't have much credible material to go on. Shoddy stuff.

I own the fight, so I don't need the link. Fact is, many people contest the legitimacy of that stoppage. As I said, I'm one of them. It was unnecessary. In any event, we are discussing a moot point. It was an am fight --- it doesn't count toward a pro fighters' legacy.

McCall was crying & walking away, "because of Lewis?" Gimme a break, brojam. He was a nutjob, clearly driven to act the way he did by his demons, not the man in front of him. I remember feeling bad for Lewis, because it robbed him of some lustre in a fight he probably would have won fairly, but you are really reaching if you think McCall's behaviour was a reaction to being in the ring with Lewis.

Listing Lewis vs. Mavrovic, Mercer & Ruddock is no more exceptional than listing Marciano vs. Charles, Walcott, Moore or Foreman vs. Frazier, Norton, Moorer & claiming they're the greatest. All the great fighters have this on their record.

There isn't five Heavyweights in history I could list who could credibly defeat him? This is where you revealed yourself to be British.

[granberry]

Any fighter with a glass chin like Lennox Lewis is the 'greatest of all time."

LOL

[Jaywheel]

Any fighter with a glass chin like Lennox Lewis is the 'greatest of all time."

LOL

Aren't you too old to be LOLing granberry? Ha Ha would suit you better.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

it could be argued that Larry Holmes was hit just as hard by Snipes and Shavers and Weaver. Flush on the noggin.

- Could be argued that you're a soft as a baby's bottom.

Snipes couldn't crack an egg with a nuclear powered hydralic press. Shavers? Knocking out Ellis and Norton in their last days don't make him the feared puncher top fighters are gonna quake in their boots over. Sorta like Cooney looking sharp rolling over yesterday's faded news. Nice work when you can get it.

Ref that stopped the McCall fight would've pulled the plug even faster against Mr. Larry who was carefully matched away from the other champs of his era until Spinks and Tyson came along. Lewis not near the greatest, but at least he wasn't ducking anyone until the end of his career.

[Counter-puncher]

Any fighter with a glass chin like Lennox Lewis is the 'greatest of all time."

LOL

Aren't you too old to be LOLing granberry? Ha Ha would suit you better.

i was thinking a more 1930s hollywood, cartoonish, 'MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA...'

[Jaywheel]

it could be argued that Larry Holmes was hit just as hard by Snipes and Shavers and Weaver. Flush on the noggin.

Snipes couldn't crack an egg with a nuclear powered hydralic press. Shavers? Knocking out Ellis and Norton in their last days don't make him the feared puncher top fighters are gonna quake in their boots over. Sorta like Cooney looking sharp rolling over yesterday's faded news. Nice work when you can get it.

Shavers, Weaver and Cooney couldn't hit but Rahman and McCall are sledgehammers aren't they?

[granberry]

Any fighter with a glass chin like Lennox Lewis is the 'greatest of all time."

LOL

Aren't you too old to be LOLing granberry? Ha Ha would suit you better.

Keep up your clueless promoting of glass chinned Lennox Lewis, jay.

And be sure to check your private mail for your next instructions on what to post from collins.

[Jaywheel]

Any fighter with a glass chin like Lennox Lewis is the 'greatest of all time."

LOL

Aren't you too old to be LOLing granberry? Ha Ha would suit you better.

Keep up your clueless promoting of glass chinned Lennox Lewis, jay.

And be sure to check your private mail for your next instructions om what to post from collins.

Didn't promote anyone, not a shill... Hannah Montana's starting, get back to your black and white 14inches screen LOLer.

[granberry]

Any fighter with a glass chin like Lennox Lewis is the 'greatest of all time."

LOL

Aren't you too old to be LOLing granberry? Ha Ha would suit you better.

i was thinking a more 1930s hollywood, cartoonish, 'MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA...'

Check your private mail for your next instructions on what to post from your mentor collins.

Or are you another of collins' aliases?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Shavers, Weaver and Cooney couldn't hit but Rahman and McCall are sledgehammers aren't they?

- Jayboy, it goes like this.

Give me the best KOs Shavers, Weaver, and Cooney notched for their careers. We'll compare to Rahman and McCall.

Are you gonna take the bait and show up for me to reel in, or just mouth it like SaadAlwaysOnTheDeckChewing Canvas and slink off like a gollum in the night?

[Jaywheel]

Shavers: Bugner, Norton, Ellis, Young
Weaver: Williams, Coetzee, Tate
Cooney: Norton, Lyle, Young

Rahman: Lewis, Sanders, Meehan
McCall: Lewis, Maskaev(always a tough nut to crack), Seldon

[Mr E]

Irene, I think the Bowe fight does count toward Lewis's overall legacy. It was an amateur fight, true, but it WAS the Olympic Finals and, even if you think the ref should have allowed Bowe to continue getting his tail waxed a little longer before intervening, the fact of the matter is that that was a DECISIVE win for Lewis.

I think a lot of folks under-rate Lewis. Shoot, the guy was 245 lbs. of solid, steroid-enhanced muscle, he had some skills, and he could move a little. You better believe he would have played Hell with the great cruiserweights of yesteryear.

That said, he was one of those guys, like Tommy Hearns and a few others, who could take punishment all day long unless that punishment was delivered right on the point of the chin, in which case he went right to queer street. That's a pretty significant chink in his armor, in my humble opinion. I put Lewis in the top ten but not in the top five. But I agree that, all things considered, he deserves to be called a "great" heavyweight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

E...

"Irene, I think the Bowe fight does count toward Lewis's overall legacy. It was an amateur fight, true, but it WAS the Olympic Finals and, even if you think the ref should have allowed Bowe to continue getting his tail waxed a little longer before intervening, the fact of the matter is that that was a DECISIVE win for Lewis..."

GI, if you please. I can't agree on either count, to be honest. I thought the stoppage was premature, & the win consequently indecisive. I don't see how it could count toward his legacy, either. When was the last time someone discussing any of these fighters' historical ranking brought up their Olympic success?

Whitaker
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Taylor

It certainly isn't the norm.

"...I think a lot of folks under-rate Lewis. Shoot, the guy was 245 lbs. of solid, steroid-enhanced muscle, he had some skills, and he could move a little. You better believe he would have played Hell with the great cruiserweights of yesteryear..."

Some, but not all, in my view. I didn't know he was steroid-enhanced? Is there documentation for Lewis using?

"...That said, he was one of those guys, like Tommy Hearns and a few others, who could take punishment all day long unless that punishment was delivered right on the point of the chin, in which case he went right to queer street. That's a pretty significant chink in his armor, in my humble opinion. I put Lewis in the top ten but not in the top five. But I agree that, all things considered, he deserves to be called a "great" heavyweight.

He was in a bruiser with Mercer, but, that relatively-rough fight aside, when did Lewis prove he could take punishment all day long? To his credit, he was usually too good for his opposition to be in that position, but I do question his powers of recovery &, to a lesser extent, his heart. We essentially agree he's great, & top-ten, but not top five. However, I don't think he beats all the great Heavies who were much smaller than he was.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Shavers: Bugner, Norton, Ellis, Young
Weaver: Williams, Coetzee, Tate
Cooney: Norton, Lyle, Young

Rahman: Lewis, Sanders, Meehan
McCall: Lewis, Maskaev(always a tough nut to crack), Seldon

- Shavers: Bugner, coming off a 2 yr layoff and fight stopped on a cut...Norton, Ellis, well past it....Young, a novice way overmatched in his 11th fight.

Weaver: Williams, not a hard task....Coetzee, decent late round KO of a notorius fading late round fighter.......Tate, decent KO, all significant compared to Shavers and Cooney because all are prime. Thing about the 19-8 version of Weaver is that Mr. Larry never fought the rematch after Weaver started notching these KOs and held a belt.

Cooney: Norton, Lyle, Young, past it, past it, past it and stopped on a cut.

Rahman: Lewis, Sanders, Meehan, all considered in their primes and all Big Strong Fighters.

McCall: Lewis, Maskaev(always a tough nut to crack), Seldon, Maskaev a novice, so I'd sub out the huge Akinwande who'd never been KOed before or since or even down before. All considered in their primes and all Big Strong Fighters.

So, Weaver the only one knocking out good prime heavies, but certainly nothing Rahman or McCall couldn't have done easier although McCall might be in one of his Lost in Space Episodes and drop a decision

Weaver wouldn't fare well against the Lewis era featuring bigger, stronger fighters than he KOed save for Tate, long considered a last second desperation Hail Mary shot from the 15 round hiding he had absorbed until then.

Regardless, Lewis was only dropped TWICE in his career, so the 2 guys doing it must of had some serious power.

[Mr E]

I thought the stoppage was premature, & the win consequently indecisive. I don't see how it could count toward his legacy, either. When was the last time someone discussing any of these fighters' historical ranking brought up their Olympic success?

Whitaker
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Taylor

It certainly isn't the norm.

It isn't the norm, you're right about that. However, I think it is mistake to ignore amateur accomplishments when assessing a fighter's ability. I think the careful analyst should take everything into account.

I disagree that the stoppage was premature but I will admit that I haven't watched that fight since I saw it live.

Some, but not all, in my view.

Note that I didn't say he would BEAT them all.

I didn't know he was steroid-enhanced? Is there documentation for Lewis using?

In my view, there hasn't been a successful heavyweight in about 20 years who wasn't using. I think it's clear by the way their bodies have developed. Holyfield, Lewis, the Klitschkos -- obvious, IMO. Tyson probably. Bowe probably not. As for documentation, I'd bet a lot of money it exists somewhere. You wait for the exposes to come out-- betcha anything those guys I named are named eventually. We'll see I guess.

He was in a bruiser with Mercer, but, that relatively-rough fight aside, when did Lewis prove he could take punishment all day long? To his credit, he was usually too good for his opposition to be in that position, but I do question his powers of recovery &, to a lesser extent, his heart. We essentially agree he's great, & top-ten, but not top five. However, I don't think he beats all the great Heavies who were much smaller than he was.

He took punishment in a lot of fights, I think, but my point wasn't that he was indestructible, just that, except when you're talking about the point of his chin, he was a tough dude. But I think you and I really do agree on the basics. And I certainly agree he wouldn't have been all the smaller guys. Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis in particular would, in my view, have handled him.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think we essentially agree on the subject --- I took more issue with Ben's postings.

You haven't seen that fight since in happened!? Brojam, that was more than twenty years ago!

Hit YouTube & give it a whirl.

[Jaywheel]

Rahman: Lewis, Sanders, Meehan, all considered in their primes and all Big Strong Fighters.

That's where I stopped reading. Meehan didn't have a prime, he lost everytime he stepped up and never beat anybody noteworthy.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Rahman: Lewis, Sanders, Meehan, all considered in their primes and all Big Strong Fighters.

That's where I stopped reading. Meehan didn't have a prime, he lost everytime he stepped up and never beat anybody noteworthy.

- What, you stopped reading before you ever learned? You provided the name, not me.

Meehan is a big fighter only stopped twice. Fights out in the sticks and made himself one of Oz's best heavies ever. Had the iron chinned Brewster ready to go and many if not most thought he won that fight going away rather than lose a close split. Maybe he then has enough money to devote to full time training with different future results.

Give it up, Lewis faced the harder punchers, the bigger, stronger fighters, and stiffer comp as compared to Mr. Larry. Most any significant modern heavy champ did, so it's not like Lewis was accomplishing that much.