Muhammad Ali Circa 1967 V George Foremam Circa 1974

[ThatOne]

Who wins and why?

The key is Ali hasn't deployed the rope a dope. I still think he runs circle around Foreman. Also, Big George would be eating a lot more right hand leads. He ate enough against a slower Ali.

[The Great John L]

Ali would have probably busted him up pretty good and taken a lot less punishment. George probably hangs around longer though because he wouldn't have been throwing as many punches against a more mobile Ali. Probably Ali by stoppage sometime after 10.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ali would have probably busted him up pretty good and taken a lot less punishment. George probably hangs around longer though because he wouldn't have been throwing as many punches against a more mobile Ali. Probably Ali by stoppage sometime after 10.

Fair enough, yeah. I do think this could get interesting if Foreman lands, though. I'm not entirely convinced Ali was as outright tough then as he was when they actually met. He's far, far too quick for Foreman in the exchanges --- could that've lead to him making one of his many fundamental (&, for the sake of showboating, sometimes deliberate) errors? What happens if he drops his hands at the wrong moment? Everyone makes their mistakes, & Foreman's power was so punishing, even Ali is not invulnerable.

I think it's a riskier fight than most would believe, but, chances are, it's just as you called it. Foreman throws fewer punches, doesn't expend himself so quickly, but gets swollen, tired & discouraged, perhaps not firing back enough for the referee to let it continue beyond ten or eleven.

Dundee would always be on the edge of his seat, though...

[The Great John L]

Ali would have probably busted him up pretty good and taken a lot less punishment. George probably hangs around longer though because he wouldn't have been throwing as many punches against a more mobile Ali. Probably Ali by stoppage sometime after 10.

Fair enough, yeah. I do think this could get interesting if Foreman lands, though. I'm not entirely convinced Ali was as outright tough then as he was when they actually met. He's far, far too quick for Foreman in the exchanges --- could that've lead to him making one of his many fundamental (&, for the sake of showboating, sometimes deliberate) errors? What happens if he drops his hands at the wrong moment? Everyone makes their mistakes, & Foreman's power was so punishing, even Ali is not invulnerable.

I think it's a riskier fight than most would believe, but, chances are, it's just as you called it. Foreman throws fewer punches, doesn't expend himself so quickly, but gets swollen, tired & discouraged, perhaps not firing back enough for the referee to let it continue beyond ten or eleven.

Dundee would always be on the edge of his seat, though...

It's also possible that the younger Ali takes George too lightly, as Frazier did, but it seems unlikely.

[hhaehre]

Ali might win but it would not have been easy. I don't buy the idea that 1967 Ali could dance around for 15 rounds untouched, hell he spent time on the ropes against Chuvalo, why would that be different against Foreman?
Without the heat and the postponements Foreman would have had better stamina than in Zaire and it's not like Zaire was easy for Ali. My prediction is a close decision for Ali in a tough fight for both boxers. If it's a ko I think it's more likely to be Foreman knocking out Ali than the other way around.

[The Great John L]

Ali might win but it would not have been easy. I don't buy the idea that 1967 Ali could dance around for 15 rounds untouched, hell he spent time on the ropes against Chuvalo, why would that be different against Foreman?
Without the heat and the postponements Foreman would have had better stamina than in Zaire and it's not like Zaire was easy for Ali. My prediction is a close decision for Ali in a tough fight for both boxers. If it's a ko I think it's more likely to be Foreman knocking out Ali than the other way around.

I think you're right, Zaire certainly didn't look easy for Ali.

I don't think that Ali would have had to "dance around for 15 rounds untouched", but I do think he was quicker and more mobile in '67 than when he fought in Zaire. Of course as I've said many times before I think the Ali of the 70's was probably tougher than the younger Ali, but against George I don't think that would have mattered as much because I think George would have had an awful time finding a target.

[Ezzard]

Boxing is so different to other sports.

In Football the top sides play each other at least twice every year. Same in NFL, NBA, etc…

In tennis the top players play each other many times over the course of a career.

In athletics the top athletes compete against one another regularly.

In boxing one fight is sometimes all you get (often even less) to judge a boxer on. Imagine just how many factors go into determining the outcome of a boxing match…

In any sport the very top performers are separated by very small margins. Of course we have to take the only evidence we have. It really might have been different though if Foreman had gone into the fight more as prospect than a human wrecking ball (as he was post-Frazier I). If Ali had been champ the psychology would have been very different.

Also, would the actual fight in Zaire have been different if it had been held in the USA? A fight on American soil would more than likely have helped Foreman.

[Goodnight, Irene]

John L. & Ezzard raise a pretty interesting point, actually. We (at least, I know I do) tend to think of a match like this as taking place in some mythical arena, with the whole world glued to their screens. Both guys are recognised all-timers, & the stakes are high.

What if Foreman was coming up in the mid-to-late '60's, though, & Ali was the established champion. What if Foreman was a 4-1 underdog against champion Ali, as he was against champion Frazier? Frazier admits he didn't believe Foreman could truly beat him when they first met, & if Ali believed the same thing...? Ali was not what I would consider invulnerable to taking opposition lightly. It happened with Norton, to cite a bout where he actually paid for it. That was also a bout where Norton couldn't blow him away early, before he got going. Foreman could, though.

This sounds like Foreman's best bet, & it's more plausible than if each sees the other coming. I don't think it's so far-fetched, really, if Ali gets lazy in there. If it happened, what about a rematch? Ali would sharpen up & be 100% doubtless, but if he were blown away ala Frazier, we can only guess what that would have done to his psyche. It's impossible to truly know. Of course, to be fair, you could reverse things where Ali is the heavy underdog coming up, & Foreman assumes the role of Liston. Then, it might be Foreman taking his man lightly. Of course, a prime Foreman was more formidable than an ageing Liston, & Ali was only, what 19-0 or something for that fight.

To those guessing this is a decision fight, just food for thought --- Foreman never saw fifteen rounds through to the end in his life.

[HomicideHenry]

Foreman's stamina is under-rated, its his skill that was the shits, and his over-kill of being viscous in the ring. Ali in 1967 was at the peak of his powers, as far as speed and elusiveness is concerned. I dont think he could have hurt George, but I dont think George could have hurt Ali enough to have been completely effective in the ring with him. I think, crazy as it sounds, it goes the distance. Foreman could jab, and I could see him box. Foreman against the 67 Ali surely would have been his toughest opponent. Ali wins the decision though.