p4p top 10 (revised)

[gambler49]

1) Ray Robinson
2) Harry Greb
3) Willie Pep
4) Manny Pacquiao
5) Hank Armstrong
6) Mickey Walker
7) Muhammad Ali
8) Benny Leonard
9) Archie Moore
10) Ray Leonard

If Manny does a good job on PBF then he moves up. If PBF destroys Manny then maybe he makes #10.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I love Walker, & feel his is obscenly under-rated, but top-ten all-time for him is a pretty long stretch of the bow.

[bollox]

[Grimm]

[SaadOffTheDeck]

10. Kid Gavilan
9. Archie Moore
8. Benny Leonard
7. Harry Greb
6. Sam Langford
5. Willie Pep
4. Henry Armstrong
3. Roberto Duran
2. Ezzard Charles
1. Sugar Ray Robinson

[dempseyfire]

My list:

1) Harry Greb: Hands down best resume of any boxer ever

2) Ray Robinson

3) Sam Langford

4) Henry Armstrong

5) Willie Pep

6) Ezzard Charles

7) Benny Leonard

8) Mickey Walker

9) Roberto Duran

10) Gene Tunney

Just missing the cut: Archie Moore, Tommy Gibbons, Joe Gans, Eder Jofre

Will attempt an #11-20 later.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Gets 'em every time...people never see it coming. You have to place a space between the number, '8' & the bracket, or you end up with 8)

Just so many victims...

[dempseyfire]

11) Archie Moore/Bob Fitz

12) Tommy Gibbons

13) Joe Gans

14) Barney Ross

15) Eder Jofre

16) Ray Leonard

17) Emile Griffith

18) Tommy Loughran

19) Joe Walcott

20) Joe Louis

I think I'll keep going later on, this is fairly fun to peruse all the weight classes throughout history.

Edit: Didn't want to re-do my whole lists so I'm put Fitz and Moore tied at #11

[The Great John L]

Armstrong
Langford
Robinson
Greb
Pep
Walcott
Gans
B. Leonard
T. Ryan
Duran
Fitzsimmons

Yeah, it's 11, but it just didn't seem right to leave Ruby Robert off....

[dempseyfire]

Damn, I knew I'd forgotten someone. Fitz would definitely make my top 20. Will have to adjust the list.

[Ezzard]

1. Ray Robinson – I feel that the number 1 has to be available to be seen on film
2. Sam Langford
3. Harry Greb
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Archie Moore
10. Sandy Saddler

[Idisagree]

Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Harry Greb
Muhammad Ali
Roberto Duran
Sam Langford
Joe Louis
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Jack Dempsey

Archie Moore, Jimmy Wilde, Manny Paquiao, Sugar Ray Leonard, Jack Johnson could be argue that they belong in the top ten too imo. Paquiao’s resume is stock with many good fighters (Morales, Barrera, Marquez, and he has proven that he can fight at different weight classes and win and win big against much bigger fighters)

[gambler49]

I love Walker, & feel his is obscenly under-rated, but top-ten all-time for him is a pretty long stretch of the bow.

Walker was a 5' 7" welter who won the middlew8 crown and battled hall of famer Sharkey at HW to a 15 rnd draw. Now in the scheme of things IMO Sharkey was much better fighter then John Ruiz who the 5' 11 ex middlew8 Roy Jones beat at HW. So id say that performance was more inpressive. Also unlike Jones Walker beat other HWs that was 2 stone+ biger then him. And also he beat HWs that outweight him by 40+ pounds. I cant think of any welter in history that can match this. And remember this was in the days when men was leaner and stronger for their size then 2day. He also was a savage body puncher and maybe had the best left hook in history! He was as tough as teak and very feirce. Mickey Walker would of been a nightmare for any fighter in history up to light heavy. And for these reasons I believe Micky Walker to be 1 of the greatest boxers of all time.

[dempseyfire]

20) Tommy Ryan

21) Sandy Saddler

22) Marvin Hagler

23) Kid Gavilan

24) Jack Dillon

25) Manny Pacquao

26) Pancho Villa

27) Tony Canzoneri

28) Jack Dempsey

29) Fighting Harada

30) Jimmy Wilde/Marcel Cerdan

[The Great John L]

The HW Dempsey, or the MW Dempsey? You could easily make a case for either one.

[dempseyfire]

John L: The heavyweight version. The middleweight is in the next set of 10

31) Harold Johnson

32) Jimmy McClarnin

33) Jimmy Bivins

34) Lou Ambers/Packay McFarland

35) Nonpareil Jack Dempsey

36) Mike Gibbons

37) Roy Jones Jr

38) Ted Kid Lewis/Kid McCoy

39) Jack Johnson

40) Billy Conn

[dempseyfire]

41) Michael Spinks

42) Muhammad Ali

43) Battling Levinsky

44) Pernell Whitaker

45) Carlos Monzon

46) Maxie Rosenbloom

47) Ike Williams

48) Manuel Ortiz

49) Tommy Hearns

50) Joe Choynski

[dempseyfire]

51) Philadelphia Jack O'Brian

52) Tiger Jack Fox

53) Dick Tiger

54) Jack Delaney

55) Young Corbett III

56) Floyd Patterson

57) Jimmy Barry

58) Carlos Ortiz

59) Sammy Mandell

60) Gentlemen Jim Corbett

[The Great John L]

Quite a list df. Any opinions on a guy like Joe Choynski? He's almost always under everybody's radar but since he fought and beat most of the best HWs of the time despite usually only weighing about 165 I think a case could be made for him to be somewhere near the bottom the top 100 p4p. Not sure I'd have him in the top 100, but he should probably get consideration.

Another guy that always seems overlooked is the great Kid McCoy.

[gambler49]

41) Michael Spinks

42) Muhammad Ali

43) Battling Levinsky

44) Pernell Whitaker

45) Carlos Monzon

46) Maxie Rosenbloom

47) Ike Williams

48) Manuel Ortiz

49) Tommy Hearns

50) Tommy Gibbons

I don't kno how any1 can have 42 boxers ahead of Ali in their p4p list, I rly dont. Ali has the best record of any HW! And Ali of the mid to late 60s was a FREAK of nature. He did so many things wrong in the ring. But with the amazing speed and reflexes he had. No1 could exploit him. He also had an iron chin, the heart of a lion and a killer instinct.
Now I think he is generally overated as some peeps have him #1 on their list. I have him in my top 10.
I think you have him way to low.. That's just my opinion.

[Seamus]

Packey McFarland not even in the top 60 ? but Michael Spinks above Ali and Monzon.

[The Great John L]

It should be hard for people to be critical of someone’s list when they haven’t produced one of their own, but I guess that’s the nature of these boards.

As far as Ali being low in dempseyfire’s list; let’s try to remember that Ali had size advantages for the majority of his fights. Yes, he did vanquish a good number of guys that were bigger than him, but if you’re thinking p4p some of the smaller HWs, especially a guy like Dempsey, seem to have many more examples of being able to beat larger guys.

[gambler49]

It should be hard for people to be critical of someone’s list when they haven’t produced one of their own, but I guess that’s the nature of these boards.

As far as Ali being low in dempseyfire’s list; let’s try to remember that Ali had size advantages for the majority of his fights. Yes, he did vanquish a good number of guys that were bigger than him, but if you’re thinking p4p some of the smaller HWs, especially a guy like Dempsey, seem to have many more examples of being able to beat larger guys.

I didn't know p4p takes in2 account the w8 of HW fighters!
If so then Marciano should be number 1 and Lennox Lewis about 200.

[The Great John L]

I didn't know p4p takes in2 account the w8 of HW fighters!
If so then Marciano should be number 1 and Lennox Lewis about 200.

IMO it should, but I don't think there's any real set rules for this type of thing. But it seems to me that a 200 lb fighter needs to have more skill than his opponent if his opponent weighs 250 lbs, and certainly Dempsey's complete demolition of very large top ranked HWs in his run up to the title seems more impressive than if he had been 6-4/225.

And yes, I would rank Marciano a better p4p fighter than Lewis for this simple reason. If Lewis was 185 do you think he would have had a chance against the Rock?

In my AT HW rankings I have a separate sheet where I apply a % weight factor so that I can take the ratings for the standard list and try to equalize them back to a standard weight.

[dempseyfire]

Wanted to state a few things. I'm finding compiling this list pretty fun. Want to say what my criteria are in no specific order:

-Overall skill as a fighter

-Resume and competition they faced; this I place major importance on

-Ability to fight and defeat larger men; this is something I take into consideration but is not a deal-breaker, hence some one division fighters like Hagler ranking so high. Inevitably there ends up being a bias against heavyweights here, but it's also due to the fact that in terms of depth the heavyweight division has always paled to the lower weight classes even in strong eras.
Ali to me was the 2nd best heavyweight who ever lived, but as John L noted, the fact that his size was a major factor in why he did so well means to me on a lb for lb list he suffers. He was able to get away with so much being blessed with incredible speed on a large frame. But I'd certaintly understand people ranking him higher. This list is more for fun and definitely not set in stone.