Would The Muhammad Ali That Fought Joe Frazier In Manilla

[ThatOne]

Beat

a prime

Jersey Joe Walcott

Ezzard Charles

Archie Moore

Rocky Marciano

[SteveO]

Yes, he would have beat all of those.........IMO.

[Robinson]

Prime vs 1975 Frazier


Id say he gets a KO over Walcott, though it will be hard for him.
But Walcott does not move enough to avoid the onslaught from
Frazier.

Charles has a good chance of escaping Frazier early. But I fear that
the power and tenacity of Frazier, even this version, would get through
and wear Charles down.

This would be a big ask for Moore, but Archie at his best, even as a
lower weight was so skilled and powerful. Big ask however for Moore,
but I see Frazier getting the nod.

Prime for Prime i see Frazier vs Marciano a lovely marriage of a fan - tastic
fight. But by 1975 Frazier would not have enough, speed and versatility
to beat Marciano. I see the Rock getting the decision against the 1975
Frazier.

1969-71 Frazier gets the nod against Marciano however.

[ThatOne]

Ali fought that fight at 224 1/2

It would have been interesting to see him fight at that weight upon his return from exile. That Ali reminds me of a bigger, stronger, faster, and smarter Evander Holyfield who wasn't a bad fighter himself.

Even the "large" Ali who was considerably past it looked good against an all time banger like Earnie Shavers.

[Ezzard]

I thought Shavers won the fight. Amazing last round comeback by Ali though.

I think they'd all be close fights.

I think prime versions of Charles and Marciano win.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Walcott is the best bet of the four against that Ali, & I do favour him.

[ThatOne]

I thought Shavers won the fight. Amazing last round comeback by Ali though.

I think they'd all be close fights.

I think prime versions of Charles and Marciano win.

What if Ali came back from the exile at a fit 224 1/2 pounds and relied on movement, deception, the willingness to take a punch, and handspeed ?

[Ezzard]

You mean then change it from the Ali from Manilla to the Ali from the FOTC?

[Ezzard]

Walcott is the best bet of the four against that Ali, & I do favour him.

Sorry, yes, Jersey Joe always has a chance. I think Walcott is a live underdog against a prime Ali.

[ThatOne]

You mean then change it from the Ali from Manilla to the Ali from the FOTC?

Ali was 6'3 .He certainly was big enough to carry 220-225 without being fat. That's why it's easier to see him than other ATGS heavyweights fighting in this era. Marcaino and a lot of others would be cruiserweights.


Back to your question. Yes -a 220 to 225 pound Ali who used movement instead of dancing and sat more on his punches. I'im not convinced he would have been worse.

[Robinson]

For some reason I thought it was the FRAZIER that fought ALI in 1975/
I misread it. Sorry lads.

[ThatOne]

You mean then change it from the Ali from Manilla to the Ali from the FOTC?

No- a 220 -225 pound Ali who trains and is comfortable at that weight and relies on hand speed , strategy, and movement.

[dempseyfire]

I don't get it, it's the Ali from Manilla or not?
Ali was at his peak weight at 210-216ish. At 220 and over he carried too much weight to move around like he did at the peak of his career. It's a big reason why he took a lot more punishment.

Ali in 1975 would've lost to a prime Walcott and Charles, I have little doubt. Probably could've gotten a late TKO over Moore a la the Lyle fight.

Marciano vs 1975 Ali would've been a great fight . . on the fence on that one. Edge towards Marciano as I view a peak Rocky as superior to the past-it Frazier who took Ali to hell and back in Manilla.

[Mr E]

Beat

a prime

Jersey Joe Walcott

Ezzard Charles

Archie Moore

Rocky Marciano

I think the Ali of Manilla was the last great version of Ali. So, still "great" but, IMO, inferior to the Ali of 1967.

Nevertheless, I'd make Ali the favorite in all these fights, except in the one against the Rock. I'd make that fight even money.

[dempseyfire]

Beat

a prime

Jersey Joe Walcott

Ezzard Charles

Archie Moore

Rocky Marciano

I think the Ali of Manilla was the last great version of Ali. So, still "great" but, IMO, inferior to the Ali of 1967.

Nevertheless, I'd make Ali the favorite in all these fights, except in the one against the Rock. I'd make that fight even money.

Was he still really great or just in a great fight?

For example, I just Norton beating the Manilla Ali pretty much as comprehensively as he did Ali the next year (despite the judges). Young would've also given him another very close fight. The way the styles clashed and the fact that Ali and Joe would both past it made it a great fight. But that Ali vs the unorthodox counterpunching style of a peak Walcott. I think the 75 Ali would be embarassed frankly.

[The Great John L]

Was he still really great or just in a great fight?

For example, I just Norton beating the Manilla Ali pretty much as comprehensively as he did Ali the next year (despite the judges). Young would've also given him another very close fight. The way the styles clashed and the fact that Ali and Joe would both past it made it a great fight. But that Ali vs the unorthodox counterpunching style of a peak Walcott. I think the 75 Ali would be embarassed frankly.

Agreed.

[ThatOne]

Beat

a prime

Jersey Joe Walcott

Ezzard Charles

Archie Moore

Rocky Marciano

I think the Ali of Manilla was the last great version of Ali. So, still "great" but, IMO, inferior to the Ali of 1967.

Nevertheless, I'd make Ali the favorite in all these fights, except in the one against the Rock. I'd make that fight even money.

Was he still really great or just in a great fight?

For example, I just Norton beating the Manilla Ali pretty much as comprehensively as he did Ali the next year (despite the judges). Young would've also given him another very close fight. The way the styles clashed and the fact that Ali and Joe would both past it made it a great fight. But that Ali vs the unorthodox counterpunching style of a peak Walcott. I think the 75 Ali would be embarassed frankly.

He would be giving up three inches of height, six inches of reach, and nearly thirty pounds . And the Ali of Manilla, imho, was a vastly better fighter than the Ali of the Capitol Centre or Yankee Stadium. The Thrlla was the last great Ali showing.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Vastly better" is just about impossible to confirm. Frazier pushed him on certain levels, Norton didn't. That's a big part of why he didn't look as good.

Walcott is the best bet of the four to beat this Ali.

[HomicideHenry]

After Manila, Ali was never the same. He got gift decisions over Young and won a dubious decision over Norton. It would take a tactician, a master fighter, a slick mover, to beat Ali in 1975. Walcott was all these. So was Charles. Moore, would go a few rounds. Marciano is the odd man out, imo. While I think he would have wanted to go 'one more round' like Joe wanted to, it makes me wonder if Marciano could have went the same 14 that Joe did---only because of the cut factor. But because of his conditioning, I think he would have been able to take the same punishment Joe did.

[ThatOne]

"Vastly better" is just about impossible to confirm. Frazier pushed him on certain levels, Norton didn't. That's a big part of why he didn't look as good.

Walcott is the best bet of the four to beat this Ali.

Norton was going to give any version of the post exile Ali trouble. That being said the Ali of Manilla still had a lot of gas in the tank.He was never the same after that. There's a saying that every fighter has one good fight left. Manilla was that fight for Ali.

It's ironic that Ali's detractors point to his gift decisions; gift decisions when he was a shot fighter*. The Young that Ali struggled with resembled the real Ali as much as the real Roy Jones Jr. resembled the Roy Jones Jr. who lost to Danny Green. And if they were gift decisions it's a credit to Ali that even in a shot condition he made those fights close enough to steal by not being visibly hurt or shook and standing tall at the end.

Any version of Ali up to 1972 makes Jimmy Young look like the fairly decent boxer in this youtube:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVwLlH7RmHQ

Go to the 1:22 mark.


*They point to the Doug Jones fight too. I don't think that fight was particularly close

[Ezzard]

I go with Ali as the #1 HW. A great fighter but Young, Norton and Frazier would have always given him problems no matter when they fought. Shavers and Leon would have been minced back in Ali's pomp though.

[The Great John L]

I go with Ali as the #1 HW. A great fighter but Young, Norton and Frazier would have always given him problems no matter when they fought. Shavers and Leon would have been minced back in Ali's pomp though.

I tend agree with this, especially Frazier. In fact, I think a prime Frazier might have been too much for the ’67 Ali, who probably had slightly better physical skills than the ’71 Ali but may not have had the same toughness as the post exile Ali.

[Ezzard]

I go with Ali as the #1 HW. A great fighter but Young, Norton and Frazier would have always given him problems no matter when they fought. Shavers and Leon would have been minced back in Ali's pomp though.

I tend agree with this, especially Frazier. In fact, I think a prime Frazier might have been too much for the ’67 Ali, who probably had slightly better physical skills than the ’71 Ali but may not have had the same toughness as the post exile Ali.

I think that when Frazier and Ali fought the first time they were as close to their primes as it gets in boxing. Frazier won that one and lost the series. Ali is higher up the list of greats but Frazier had him in that fight. I've argued this one to death though in the past.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Not to be too excessivly picky, guys, but just to set the record straight --- 'Manila' has just the one, 'L.'

[dempseyfire]

I go with Ali as the #1 HW. A great fighter but Young, Norton and Frazier would have always given him problems no matter when they fought. Shavers and Leon would have been minced back in Ali's pomp though.

I tend agree with this, especially Frazier. In fact, I think a prime Frazier might have been too much for the ’67 Ali, who probably had slightly better physical skills than the ’71 Ali but may not have had the same toughness as the post exile Ali.

It's not an issue of toughness. Ali took a TREMENDOUS body beating vs Chuvalo and hung in there . . .I rewatched that fight over thanksgiving and was amazed at the number of flush body shots Ali took for 15 rounds.
But, that same fight had me thinking Frazier would beat any Ali. Chuvalo made Ali much more flat-footed and stationary through much of the fight with his pressure and body work. Frazier was a league above and would've done the same thing like he did in 71. Ali in 67 had perhaps slightly better punch output and leg endurance but not enough to drastically change the outcome of the fight.