Would Joe Frazier ever be.....

[Crease]

Yes, didn't Frazier defeat Ali the first time.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think there's at least a 40-50% probability that, yes, he would've. Three reasons why...

1) He had a clear style advantage over Ali, & proved he could match pace with him (a slightly more sluggish --- though more durable --- Ali than the peak version perhaps, but, still, it's valid). It would never, ever have been an easy fight for both men, so the chances of Frazier besting him have to be fairly close to equal, which makes his odds good right there.

2) Ali may well have lost a step during his lay-off, but, had he been permitted to go on a long run as champion unmolested, he wouldn't have Frazier until, at the very earliest, 1968 or '69. That's a four-to-five year tenure as the champ --- enough to make anyone over-confident, especially when you're defending your belt as easily as Ali was. There might even be a case to be made Ali took Frazier lightly when they first met, & that was with all Frazier had already accomplished. I don't find it a stretch to think an over-confident, champion Ali could under-estimate Frazier, the contender. If that happens? Watch out, Mo, is all I can say.

3) This may appear inconceivable to some, but what if Ali had beaten him, continuing his run as champ into the early-70's? He took Norton lightly, & lost. Frazier could've beaten Norton for the title ---- albeit, there's a strong chance they would never fight, given the friendship. I'm just pointing out it's another possible route.

All-in-all, I wouldn't say, given Ali's uninterrupted presence, Frazier would definitely have made champ at some point. Simply, I'd guess his chances of doing so would be very good. Even if he lost first-time out to Ali, it's likely the fight would've been so fantastic, & such a money-spinner, they would have met again. You have to admit, Frazier's chances of winning one of two fights are pretty damn hot.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'm having a difficult time with the definitive nature of your poll, btw. I feel like I can't just straight-up answer one way or the other --- it's too absolute for the reality of the situation.

If absolutely pushed to answer, based on odds, I'll say yes, I suppose. It's highly possible he wouldn't have made champ, however. I think the fact he became not just a champion, but an all-time division legend, is going to skew these results, btw. People have a tough time --- if only subconsciously --- imagining a ring legend couldn't have been champion under different circumstances, because that's all they know the fighter as.

My suspicion is we'll see a landslide of support for Frazier, which, IMO, doesn't really reflect the size of the danger he might've missed the cut on this one. Just my two cents.

[Seamus]

No. Ali was 25 and only getting better. If he fights Frazier in 68, Ali beats him by a clear decision, it would most likely be a good enough bout for a rematch, which I believe Ali wins again. Don't think there'd be 3 bouts in a row, so Frazier's best hope would be for Ali to call it an early retirement before Foreman peaks. Don't think that would happen though, so I don't see Frazier winning in a world title.

[Ezzard]

I'd say a definite yes.

[gregor]

He took Norton lightly, & lost.

Norton with his style would be always a problem for Ali, no matter if he took him lightly (which could be the case when they met the 1st time) or not. Ali should've lost the trilogy, and he never looked good against Norton anyway.

[Goodnight, Irene]

The fact remains, however, that Ali took Norton lightly, which contributed to his downfall. Had he beaten Frazier & been champ into the early-70's, it's likely Norton would've been the man to subsequently dethrone him. Most people may not think Frazier would get into the ring with Norton, on account of their friendship, but consider Frazier's already lost his first title shot to Ali in this scenario, is already in his late-20's, & knows with his style, he can't be around forever. He also likely knows he's better than Norton. This could be impetus enough to get him into that ring. Whether or not Norton would do it, I'm not so sure. Of course, Futch would also be a problem. Dundee worked it out with Ali vs. Ellis, but that's the exception, moreso than the norm.

[ThatOne]

I watched all three Ali-Norton fights in real time. All three could have gone either way.

As for Ali-Norton lll AP had it 9-6 Ali and UPI had it 8-7 Norton ; a pickem.

Even Joe Frazier, no friend of Ali, called the bout a draw.

And Norton never faced the real Ali. He was 65% of himself when he faced Norton in 73 and probably 40% of himself when they had the rubber match in 76.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I watched all three Ali-Norton fights in real time. All three could have gone either way.

As for Ali-Norton lll AP had it 9-6 Ali and UPI had it 8-7 Norton ; a pickem.

Even Joe Frazier, no friend of Ali, called the bout a draw.

And Norton never faced the real Ali. He was 65% of himself when he faced Norton in 73 and probably 40% of himself when they had the rubber match in 76.

Norton plainly won the first & third bouts. Give the Ali warrior mentality a break, mate. You're stretching it pretty far, now. Between calling the third fight, "too close to call" & saying Ali was 65% of himself in 1973 (before Foreman & Frazier III), well...

[ThatOne]

I watched all three Ali-Norton fights in real time. All three could have gone either way.

As for Ali-Norton lll AP had it 9-6 Ali and UPI had it 8-7 Norton ; a pickem.

Even Joe Frazier, no friend of Ali, called the bout a draw.

And Norton never faced the real Ali. He was 65% of himself when he faced Norton in 73 and probably 40% of himself when they had the rubber match in 76.

Norton plainly won the first & third bouts. Give the Ali warrior mentality a break, mate. You're stretching it pretty far, now. Between calling the third fight, "too close to call" & saying Ali was 65% of himself in 1973 (before Foreman & Frazier III), well...

Why did AP have it 9-6 Ali and UPI have it 8-7 Norton and why did the expert panel assembled by NBC call it a draw?

Yeah- Here's Ali in his some fights before his exile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTgAKs7M ... re=related

Look how silly he's making Patterson look. He's much, much, faster there then he was after the layoff. His handspeed slipped a bit but his legs were nowhere near the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3ErpPwJ_AM

Here's Ali in his first fight with Norton


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7nP2i9hOIY





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlKHZp4A ... re=related

[ThatOne]

Ali was prohibited from fighting from the ages of 26-29. The revisionists choose to ignore this. What he accomplished after the layoff is nothing short of amazing.

Look at Tyson, a near ATG . He returned from a comparable layoff and he was a shell of himself.

For Ali-Norton 111 you had a legendary ref (Mercante) and a legendary judge (Lederman) scoring it.

Were they incompetent or corrupt?

[yancey]

I think there's at least a 40-50% probability that, yes, he would've. Three reasons why...

1) He had a clear style advantage over Ali, & proved he could match pace with him (a slightly more sluggish --- though more durable --- Ali than the peak version perhaps, but, still, it's valid). It would never, ever have been an easy fight for both men, so the chances of Frazier besting him have to be fairly close to equal, which makes his odds good right there.

2) Ali may well have lost a step during his lay-off, but, had he been permitted to go on a long run as champion unmolested, he wouldn't have Frazier until, at the very earliest, 1968 or '69. That's a four-to-five year tenure as the champ --- enough to make anyone over-confident, especially when you're defending your belt as easily as Ali was. There might even be a case to be made Ali took Frazier lightly when they first met, & that was with all Frazier had already accomplished. I don't find it a stretch to think an over-confident, champion Ali could under-estimate Frazier, the contender. If that happens? Watch out, Mo, is all I can say.

3) This may appear inconceivable to some, but what if Ali had beaten him, continuing his run as champ into the early-70's? He took Norton lightly, & lost. Frazier could've beaten Norton for the title ---- albeit, there's a strong chance they would never fight, given the friendship. I'm just pointing out it's another possible route.

All-in-all, I wouldn't say, given Ali's uninterrupted presence, Frazier would definitely have made champ at some point. Simply, I'd guess his chances of doing so would be very good. Even if he lost first-time out to Ali, it's likely the fight would've been so fantastic, & such a money-spinner, they would have met again. You have to admit, Frazier's chances of winning one of two fights are pretty damn hot.

Good post, but there is no way Ali took Frazier lightly in their first fight.

Ali knew good and well he was in for the fight of his life in the most important fight of his career.

On fight night he was close to a 2-1 underdog in a bout that opened at even money.

[ThatOne]

I think there's at least a 40-50% probability that, yes, he would've. Three reasons why...

1) He had a clear style advantage over Ali, & proved he could match pace with him (a slightly more sluggish --- though more durable --- Ali than the peak version perhaps, but, still, it's valid). It would never, ever have been an easy fight for both men, so the chances of Frazier besting him have to be fairly close to equal, which makes his odds good right there.

2) Ali may well have lost a step during his lay-off, but, had he been permitted to go on a long run as champion unmolested, he wouldn't have Frazier until, at the very earliest, 1968 or '69. That's a four-to-five year tenure as the champ --- enough to make anyone over-confident, especially when you're defending your belt as easily as Ali was. There might even be a case to be made Ali took Frazier lightly when they first met, & that was with all Frazier had already accomplished. I don't find it a stretch to think an over-confident, champion Ali could under-estimate Frazier, the contender. If that happens? Watch out, Mo, is all I can say.

3) This may appear inconceivable to some, but what if Ali had beaten him, continuing his run as champ into the early-70's? He took Norton lightly, & lost. Frazier could've beaten Norton for the title ---- albeit, there's a strong chance they would never fight, given the friendship. I'm just pointing out it's another possible route.

All-in-all, I wouldn't say, given Ali's uninterrupted presence, Frazier would definitely have made champ at some point. Simply, I'd guess his chances of doing so would be very good. Even if he lost first-time out to Ali, it's likely the fight would've been so fantastic, & such a money-spinner, they would have met again. You have to admit, Frazier's chances of winning one of two fights are pretty damn hot.

Good post, but there is no way Ali took Frazier lightly in their first fight.

Ali knew good and well he was in for the fight of his life in the most important fight of his career.

On fight night he was close to a 2-1 underdog in a bout that opened at even money.

I thought Frazier was a 6-5 favorite for the FOTC.

[yancey]

I watched all three Ali-Norton fights in real time. All three could have gone either way.

As for Ali-Norton lll AP had it 9-6 Ali and UPI had it 8-7 Norton ; a pickem.

Even Joe Frazier, no friend of Ali, called the bout a draw.

And Norton never faced the real Ali. He was 65% of himself when he faced Norton in 73 and probably 40% of himself when they had the rubber match in 76.

Norton plainly won the first & third bouts. Give the Ali warrior mentality a break, mate. You're stretching it pretty far, now. Between calling the third fight, "too close to call" & saying Ali was 65% of himself in 1973 (before Foreman & Frazier III), well...

[yancey]

I think there's at least a 40-50% probability that, yes, he would've. Three reasons why...

1) He had a clear style advantage over Ali, & proved he could match pace with him (a slightly more sluggish --- though more durable --- Ali than the peak version perhaps, but, still, it's valid). It would never, ever have been an easy fight for both men, so the chances of Frazier besting him have to be fairly close to equal, which makes his odds good right there.

2) Ali may well have lost a step during his lay-off, but, had he been permitted to go on a long run as champion unmolested, he wouldn't have Frazier until, at the very earliest, 1968 or '69. That's a four-to-five year tenure as the champ --- enough to make anyone over-confident, especially when you're defending your belt as easily as Ali was. There might even be a case to be made Ali took Frazier lightly when they first met, & that was with all Frazier had already accomplished. I don't find it a stretch to think an over-confident, champion Ali could under-estimate Frazier, the contender. If that happens? Watch out, Mo, is all I can say.

3) This may appear inconceivable to some, but what if Ali had beaten him, continuing his run as champ into the early-70's? He took Norton lightly, & lost. Frazier could've beaten Norton for the title ---- albeit, there's a strong chance they would never fight, given the friendship. I'm just pointing out it's another possible route.

All-in-all, I wouldn't say, given Ali's uninterrupted presence, Frazier would definitely have made champ at some point. Simply, I'd guess his chances of doing so would be very good. Even if he lost first-time out to Ali, it's likely the fight would've been so fantastic, & such a money-spinner, they would have met again. You have to admit, Frazier's chances of winning one of two fights are pretty damn hot.

Good post, but there is no way Ali took Frazier lightly in their first fight.

Ali knew good and well he was in for the fight of his life in the most important fight of his career.

On fight night he was close to a 2-1 underdog in a bout that opened at even money.

I thought Frazier was a 6-5 favorite for the FOTC.

When the fight was announced it opened at even money and gradually Frazier became the slight betting favorite and then as fight night approached Frazier became a clearer favorite. On fight night odds were in the 9-5 and 2-1 range for Frazier.

The Frazier of '69-'71 was regarded as a buzzsaw freaking machine and everybody knew Ali was facing his strongest test.

[ThatOne]

I watched all three Ali-Norton fights in real time. All three could have gone either way.

As for Ali-Norton lll AP had it 9-6 Ali and UPI had it 8-7 Norton ; a pickem.

Even Joe Frazier, no friend of Ali, called the bout a draw.

And Norton never faced the real Ali. He was 65% of himself when he faced Norton in 73 and probably 40% of himself when they had the rubber match in 76.

Norton plainly won the first & third bouts. Give the Ali warrior mentality a break, mate. You're stretching it pretty far, now. Between calling the third fight, "too close to call" & saying Ali was 65% of himself in 1973 (before Foreman & Frazier III), well...

So were Lederman and Mercante corrupt or incompetent?

One is in the International Boxing Hall Of Fame and the other has judged over one hundred title fights.

[ThatOne]

Good post, but there is no way Ali took Frazier lightly in their first fight.

Ali knew good and well he was in for the fight of his life in the most important fight of his career.

On fight night he was close to a 2-1 underdog in a bout that opened at even money.

I thought Frazier was a 6-5 favorite for the FOTC.

When the fight was announced it opened at even money and gradually Frazier became the slight betting favorite and then as fight night approached Frazier became a clearer favorite. On fight night odds were in the 9-5 and 2-1 range for Frazier.

Who was the favorite in the rematch?

[yancey]

I thought Frazier was a 6-5 favorite for the FOTC.

When the fight was announced it opened at even money and gradually Frazier became the slight betting favorite and then as fight night approached Frazier became a clearer favorite. On fight night odds were in the 9-5 and 2-1 range for Frazier.

Who was the favorite in the rematch?

Ali was the favorite in the 2nd fight and a stronger favorite in Manila.

[ThatOne]

They say Walcott beat Louis , Bonavena beat Frazier in their first match, and LaStarza beat Marciano. Those wins are essential to securing those boxer's legacy; especially in the case of Rocky.

I guess Louis, Frazier, and Marciano to make it "close enough to steal" Maybe if LaStarza, Walcott, and Norton would have seriously shook their opponents we wouldn't have to be debating those fights.


Why do we always talk about Ali's gift decisions, most of which occurred when he was shot- Young and Norton lll come to mind.


BTW- if Frazier-Bonavena l is scored on a point system instead of a round system Frazuir might have lost because he was knocked down twice in the second round making it a 10-7 round.

[yancey]

They say Walcott beat Louis , Bonavena beat Frazier in their first match, and LaStarza beat Marciano. Those wins are essential to securing those boxer's legacy; especially in the case of Rocky.

I guess Louis, Frazier, and Marciano to make it "close enough to steal" Maybe if LaStarza, Walcott, and Norton would have seriously shook their opponents we wouldn't have to be debating those fights.

Frazier's victory over Bonavena in their first fight was close but legit.

[yancey]

They say Walcott beat Louis , Bonavena beat Frazier in their first match, and LaStarza beat Marciano. Those wins are essential to securing those boxer's legacy; especially in the case of Rocky.

I guess Louis, Frazier, and Marciano to make it "close enough to steal" Maybe if LaStarza, Walcott, and Norton would have seriously shook their opponents we wouldn't have to be debating those fights.


Why do we always talk about Ali's gift decisions, most of which occurred when he was shot- Young and Norton lll come to mind.


BTW- if Frazier-Bonavena l is scored on a point system instead of a round system Frazuir might have lost because he was knocked down twice in the second round making it a 10-7 round.

But it wasn't scored on the point system! One of those knockdowns was more of a push of an off-balance Joe. Frazier won the fight fair and square.

[ThatOne]

I will tell you what Good Night Irene.

Ali fought two boxers before and after the layoff; Patterson and Chuvalo. If you can tell me Ali looked nearly as good in the rematches with these boxers I will revisit my opinion that the post-exile Ali was a greatly diminished fighter.

Also- Chuvalo said the post-exile Ali wasn't nearly as good a fighter as the one he faced in 66. If you want I will supply with the exact quote.


You would agreee he was in a great position to judge.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Forget Ali & Frazier.

ThatOne & Yancey, as die-hard rivals, is gonna be far more entertaining

[ThatOne]

Forget Ali & Frazier.

ThatOne & Yancey, as die-hard rivals, is gonna be far more entertaining

My best friend is a huge Frazier fan. He has an autographed picture of Joe in his bedroom. At least my autographed picture of Ali is in my foyer.

Ali made my growing up years entertaining. What can I say?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Most of us have such a fighter from our early years in the sport.