BoxRec Editor $bill recently uncovered what appears to be a "new" Demspey "title bout" in the Arizona Republic newspaper. Dated July 24, 1922 at Buffalo, NY.
It was confirmed in the San Francisco Chronicle.
(However, it was not reported in the sports pages of the New York Times or the New York World, or by Darcy's hometown paper -- the Portland Oregonian.)
It's been entered into the database. (I added, at Bill's request, the comment, because for some reason he is unable to paste it in.)
Anybody with the ability to research the 1922 Buffalo papers is welcome to dispute or confirm its authenticity. :)
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009009
"New" Jack Dempsey Title Bout Uncovered
It so happened that while I was looking this up in the SFC at the U of W's Suzzallo Library the other day, fellow BoxRec Editor/IBRO member Matt was also present researching the Portland paper. He handed to me Trambitas's/Darcy's May 16, 1972 obituary from the Portland Oregonian newspaper, which mentioned this bout. From the obit, it seems that this bout was a product of a local Buffalo ordinance that prohibited exhibitions -- a so-called "local option" of state-wide rules I have seen before in other jurisdictions.
I'm not aware of this fight, but Nat Fleischer always said that, even though as heavyweight champion could engage in exhibitions, if he got knocked out he would lose his title to the other fighter, as a heavyweight can not come in over his weight class limit, as there is none. He'd have to be knocked out, though,as there are no decisions given in an exhibition. Perhaps this was the basis of the buffalo ordinance.
Champions in the lower weight divisions seldom fight "over the weight" non-title fights these days, but they used to be common. There was a similar rule then. Say, if the welterweight champion fought an over the weight fight, no matter what HE weighed, if his opponent came in under 147 and won, and it wouldn't have to be by a knockout, he'd be declared the new champion.
Sugar Ray Robinson was involved in a situation like this once. He was usually kind in these over the weight affairs and was content to give the crowd a show and the local boy a break by contenting himself to win a decision...unless the other guy got too frisky. When he was welter champion he fought a fellow named Gene Buffalo in Wilkes -Barre Pennsylvania, a non-title fight. When the weights were announced before the bell, I don't recall the exact poundage, but Buffalo was under 147.
Instead of protesting when the bell rang Robinson just came out of his corner and knocked the guy cold in the first round.
Champions in the lower weight divisions seldom fight "over the weight" non-title fights these days, but they used to be common. There was a similar rule then. Say, if the welterweight champion fought an over the weight fight, no matter what HE weighed, if his opponent came in under 147 and won, and it wouldn't have to be by a knockout, he'd be declared the new champion.
Sugar Ray Robinson was involved in a situation like this once. He was usually kind in these over the weight affairs and was content to give the crowd a show and the local boy a break by contenting himself to win a decision...unless the other guy got too frisky. When he was welter champion he fought a fellow named Gene Buffalo in Wilkes -Barre Pennsylvania, a non-title fight. When the weights were announced before the bell, I don't recall the exact poundage, but Buffalo was under 147.
Instead of protesting when the bell rang Robinson just came out of his corner and knocked the guy cold in the first round.
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$ bill
- Heavyweight
What about to add....
20.02.1925 (Cologne) Jack Dempsey vs Max Schmeling No Contest 2 Rds
(Exhibition)
to the Database ?
That was an Exhibition during Jack's wedding-journey to Europe. Schmeling, a lightheavyweight fighter then and still unknown in Germany used his good feet and landed some surprising punches and Jack told him later at the evening (at a banquet wich was given for the champ), that he (Max) is talented and will become a Champion some day.
if Maxie would have knocked Dempsey out....would he have been Champion ?
20.02.1925 (Cologne) Jack Dempsey vs Max Schmeling No Contest 2 Rds
(Exhibition)
to the Database ?
That was an Exhibition during Jack's wedding-journey to Europe. Schmeling, a lightheavyweight fighter then and still unknown in Germany used his good feet and landed some surprising punches and Jack told him later at the evening (at a banquet wich was given for the champ), that he (Max) is talented and will become a Champion some day.
if Maxie would have knocked Dempsey out....would he have been Champion ?
friedie...very interesting. I'd read earlier here that max and jack had an exhibition but not with this much detail.
boxing is kind of a common law sport with rules scattered around in various venues....but according to nat fleischer and even older old timers schmeling would have had considerable support to be called the heavyweight champion based on your scenario.
boxing is kind of a common law sport with rules scattered around in various venues....but according to nat fleischer and even older old timers schmeling would have had considerable support to be called the heavyweight champion based on your scenario.
Another little-known Dempsey bout has been added to the BoxRec database: Dempsey D-4 Chief Geronimo @ Pocatello, ID, Feb. 26, 1915.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009009
This bout has been discussed and confirmed by some of the BoxRec Editors. If anyone disputes this Dempsey bout, please post here.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009009
This bout has been discussed and confirmed by some of the BoxRec Editors. If anyone disputes this Dempsey bout, please post here.
I dunno, you accept this Darcy guy, you got to accept Jack Finnegan and Walker and O'Brien as title contenders. Darcy was Dempsey's sparring partner. He tries anything funny and he's out on his can. Tommy Burns boxed a number of exhibitions while champion. Do we make them all title defences now?
This is a slippery slope.
Cap
This is a slippery slope.
Cap
Cap:
This bout has been discussed by a number of boxing historians, and is now accepted as legitimate.
This bout was also challenged over at the CBZ Forum:
http://p068.ezboard.com/fcyberboxingzon ... =913.topic
At one point in the CBZ discussion, Klompton the Challenger said: "The 'announcement' that it was for a title was simply a means of promoting the exhibition to make more money. " Well, first of all, there was NO announcement that it was for the World's Heavyweight Title; it was billed merely as an exhibition. Secondly, who in his/her right mind would believe that a four-rounder, with no nation-wiide publicity, was for the Title. This "title" bout came about because of circumstances and local boxing rules.
BTW: $Bill (William Buffett), the guy who brought this Darcy-Dempsey title bout to the attention of us folks today, despite what Klompton says in his CBZ opening salvo, is indeed a 90-plus-year-old boxing fan. I have not heard from that wonderful character lately, but I hope he is still punching.
This bout has been discussed by a number of boxing historians, and is now accepted as legitimate.
This bout was also challenged over at the CBZ Forum:
http://p068.ezboard.com/fcyberboxingzon ... =913.topic
At one point in the CBZ discussion, Klompton the Challenger said: "The 'announcement' that it was for a title was simply a means of promoting the exhibition to make more money. " Well, first of all, there was NO announcement that it was for the World's Heavyweight Title; it was billed merely as an exhibition. Secondly, who in his/her right mind would believe that a four-rounder, with no nation-wiide publicity, was for the Title. This "title" bout came about because of circumstances and local boxing rules.
BTW: $Bill (William Buffett), the guy who brought this Darcy-Dempsey title bout to the attention of us folks today, despite what Klompton says in his CBZ opening salvo, is indeed a 90-plus-year-old boxing fan. I have not heard from that wonderful character lately, but I hope he is still punching.