Mike Casey On Larry Holmes-Agree Or Disagree

[ThatOne]

Holmes

In a sense, Larry Holmes was no less misconstrued than Gene Tunney. Even Larry’s nickname of The Easton Assassin was a misnomer. Esteemed historian Gilbert E Odd once described Holmes as possessing “… a killer punch in each hand.” Well, I’m sorry, folks, but Larry never possessed that. He was a solid and hurtful puncher with a wonderful jab, a good repertoire of punches and bags of guile and heart. But his footwork was never more than adequate and his powers of concentration were frequently found wanting.

Larry was one of the most courageous men I ever saw in a dogfight, but how many of those dogfights should he have really been in? Like Lennox Lewis, Holmes was so often guilty of falling asleep at the wheel and blundering his way into clearly visible quicksand.

When Earnie Shavers nearly smashed him through the floor at Caesars Palace, Larry was coasting and should have sealed the comfortable points win that he achieved in their first fight. He got himself into a terrible mess against the awkward but ordinary Renaldo Snipes, very nearly being knocked out. Holmes was clearly unfit against Mike Weaver at Madison Square Garden, and almost came a cropper before saving the day with a Hail Mary special. Weaver, God bless him, was dead game and a mighty dangerous banger, but never really distinguished himself from the pack of modest eighties contenders.

Holmes always had trouble with fighters who were not afraid to let rip at him. He is so often compared to Muhammad Ali, and I know not why. Larry didn’t have Muhammad’s speed of hand or foot. He didn’t have anything approaching the Louisville Lip’s grace, versatility or inventiveness. Ali, like Tunney, could change horses in mid-stream and re-structure his game plan. Larry’s talent in that department was strictly finite.

Look around the various boxing forums and one topic that never ceases to get people talking is whether Rocky Marciano could have beaten a prime Joe Louis. I think Rocky would have fallen short. In my mind’s eye, I can only ever Joe breaking him up to force a late stoppage in what would still have been a very punishing fight for Louis. Conversely, I do not believe that Mike Tyson’s destruction of the ageing Holmes was too much of a deception. In his prime, Larry never met the like of Tyson, nor the like of a Joe Frazier who would have chased and nagged and punched away at Holmes all night long.

Historian Eric Jorgensen holds Holmes in very high regard, ranking him fourth in the all-time pecking order. “I view Holmes as a bigger, stronger version of Tunney. I think Larry’s heart and brains were close to being on a par with Tunney’s, and Holmes was dang near as fast too. Great stamina, iron chin, punishing puncher.

“He didn’t quite have Gene’s skill on the inside, but Holmes did have the inside right uppercut and a better left hook. What I really loved about Holmes was his unrelenting will to win. He just wouldn’t let himself lose.”

Yet Eric acknowledges that Larry would not have fared well against the great predators, believing that a match with Jack Dempsey would have produced a surprisingly one-sided victory for the Manassa Mauler.

“Holmes was not exceptionally quick afoot and did not possess a big punch,” says Eric. “Thus he had trouble with aggressive fighters who put pressure on him like Ken Norton, Mike Weaver and Earnie Shavers. Fortunately for Holmes, those guys all had glass jaws and – except for Norton – no stamina. So ultimately they wilted beneath Holmes’ steady barrage.

“No one ever accused Dempsey of lacking either chin or stamina, however, and he would not have wilted. Moreover, Dempsey could lay on more pressure than all three of those guys put together. Further, he was harder to hit than any of them (Tunney, a quicker and more accurate puncher than Holmes, once said he was only able to catch Dempsey cleanly a couple of times in their fights), so Jack would have paid a lower price for his aggression than those guys did.

“Finally, don’t forget Holmes’ career-long tendency to get hit by right hands over his left jab (Kevin Isaac, Renaldo Snipes, Duane Bobick in the Olympic trials, Shavers and Tyson), a punch that was a speciality of Dempsey’s. Any way you look at it, Holmes would have been in trouble, though his great chin and heart would have kept him on his feet for a while.”



http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey ... sLewis.htm

[Goodnight, Irene]

It's a pretty solid take, for the most part.

[ThatOne]

It's a pretty solid take, for the most part.

What's interesting is that the Tyson-Holmes debacle is looked at in a new light. The conventional argument is that Larry was shot and it's unfair to infer anything from that fight. The revisionist argument is that Larry went on to fight successfully for another decade or so and maybe folks can infer more from the Tyson fight than they normally do. Maybe it was just a bad match up.

I still tend not to read too much into that fight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I've always said this much about that fight --- Tyson did what no one else ever managed to do, & in first-class style. I think that carries some weight with me, but I still couldn't call it an A-class victory. No. However, something about the way Tyson took him out stays with me to this day, & I don't dismiss it completely, as some do.

Some have said Holmes was very rusty & under-done when he fought Tyson, & had his, "sea-legs" under him moreso in later fights, so age isn't the full issue. I don't see why that's flawed thinking.

[Ezzard]

The problem with rating Tyson is that he generally steam-rolled opponents or he lost. So in most cases he does beat opponents in a stunning fashion but that doesn’t work its way into a logical equation in the way some of his fans think it does.

[Goodnight, Irene]

The problem with rating Tyson is that he generally steam-rolled opponents or he lost. So in most cases he does beat opponents in a stunning fashion but that doesn’t work its way into a logical equation in the way some of his fans think it does.

There are still a fair few fights descriptively in-between those poles. Green, Smith, the Ruddock affairs, etc.

[ThatOne]

The problem with rating Tyson is that he generally steam-rolled opponents or he lost. So in most cases he does beat opponents in a stunning fashion but that doesn’t work its way into a logical equation in the way some of his fans think it does.

But what does Larry's performance say in that fight or is the conventional wisdom right in that he was done and his abysmal permance means nothing.

And what of the Spinks fights?

[Ezzard]

The problem with rating Tyson is that he generally steam-rolled opponents or he lost. So in most cases he does beat opponents in a stunning fashion but that doesn’t work its way into a logical equation in the way some of his fans think it does.

There are still a fair few fights descriptively in-between those poles. Green, Smith, the Ruddock affairs, etc.

Smith may have gone the distance but it was just as convincing.

People forget Green, Tillis, Tucker and Ruddock when they type KO1 next to Tyson versus anyone. That's my point.

[Ezzard]

The problem with rating Tyson is that he generally steam-rolled opponents or he lost. So in most cases he does beat opponents in a stunning fashion but that doesn’t work its way into a logical equation in the way some of his fans think it does.

But what does Larry's performance say in that fight or is the conventional wisdom right in that he was done and his abysmal permance means nothing.

And what of the Spinks fights?

He was old. He came up against a great HW.

Against Spinks he just couldn't follow up to finish him.

[dempseyfire]

Come on, it was a decent win but doesn't say anything to a peak Holmes-Tyson matchup. Holmes had success in the 90s with an entirely new style based on his aging legs in which he'd lay against the ropes and counterpunch as guys came in, and even there never beat an A-class fighter that decade (and no I don't consider Mercer A-class).

Plus Tyson got Larry after he'd been inactive for 2 years.

As for the article, I think it's a little overboard, especially when people say Larry lacked great speed (his handspeed at his best is up there with anyones). But he has some good points.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Come on, it was a decent win but doesn't say anything to a peak Holmes-Tyson matchup. Holmes had success in the 90s with an entirely new style based on his aging legs in which he'd lay against the ropes and counterpunch as guys came in, and even there never beat an A-class fighter that decade (and no I don't consider Mercer A-class).

Plus Tyson got Larry after he'd been inactive for 2 years.

As for the article, I think it's a little overboard, especially when people say Larry lacked great speed (his handspeed at his best is up there with anyones). But he has some good points.

I agree it says nothing about their peak-to-peak match (in which, I favour Holmes, but not by a whole lot), but I am just a little leary when I see people dismiss it out-right, & give it not one iota of thought.

It still stays with me. No one ever did Holmes in like that, before or after.

[granberry]

"Ali, like Tunney, could change horses in mid-stream and re-structure his game plan. "

Not true.

Jimmy Young made an ass out of Ali for the first five rounds of their fight

and Ali never adjusted as it only got worse and worse for poor Ali as the fight progressed further and further.

Ali missed the same sloppy left circular swing and the same right hand for the entire 15 rounds.
While he ate Young's left jab, right hand and body shots.

Ali and his supposed boxing mind Angelo Dundee had no adjustments there when they desperately needed them.

Only Don King's stooge "judges" with their travesty of a decision enabled a totally embarassed Ali to crawl away.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Ali, like Tunney, could change horses in mid-stream and re-structure his game plan. "

Not true.

Jimmy Young made an ass out of Ali for the first five rounds of their fight

and Ali never adjusted as it only got worse and worse for poor Ali as the fight progressed further and further.

Ali missed the same sloppy left circular swing and the same right hand for the entire 15 rounds.
While he ate Young's left jab, right hand and body shots.

Ali and his supposed boxing mind Angelo Dundee had no adjustments there when they desperately needed them.

Only Don King's stooge "judges" with their travesty of a decision enabled a totally embarassed Ali to crawl away.

The fact that you seeimingly never grow bored of not only attacking the same fighter, for the same fights, but continue to use a near-word for word repeat each time speaks of a man whose venom for a certain fighter makes him a rather pathetic slave to his bias. I think it's as sad as it is boring.

[granberry]

Jimmy Young made an ass of Ali.

For all to see.

As I wrote above,

that fight showed Ali could not adjust.

He never did in the entire 15 rounds.

[ThatOne]

Dear Francis, errrrr Granberry. I hate to be pedantic but there are two rs in embarrass. I only point that out to spare you further embarrassment


Now that we got that out of the way

1) Ali was old for the Young fight-34

2) Ali was shopworn- he was coming off three wars with Frazier, two wars with Norton, and one war with George Foreman. As an aside I never ceased to be amazed at the fact that Joe Frazier's acolytes never cease to tire of the argument that Joe Frazier was never the same fighter after the FOTC and his less than stellar subsequent performances can be explained away by that fact but Muhammad Ali is to be pilloried for poor performances at 34, 36, and 38 years old.

3) Ali was fat and out of shape. At 230 pounds he weighed more for that fight than he did at any time in his career except for his final hurrah against Trevor Berbick.

4) Ali was disinterested for most of the fight from the fake shell he went into at the opening bell to wiggling his ample posterior when he was against the ropes.

5) Young never seriously hurt Ali. For a serious hurting watch how Gerry Cooney rearranged Jimmy Young's face.

[granberry]

Dear Francis, errrrr Granberry. I hate to be pedantic but there are two rs in embarrass. I only point that out to spare you further embarrassment


Now that we got that out of the way

1) Ali was old for the Young fight-34

2) Ali was shopworn- he was coming off three wars with Frazier, two wars with Norton, and one war with George Foreman. As an aside I never ceased to be amazed at all the fact that Joe Frazier's acolytes never cease to tire of the argument that Joe Frazier was never the same fighter after the FOTC and his less than stellar subsequent performances can be explained away by that fact but Muhammad Ali is pilloried for poor performances at 34, 36, and 38 years old.

3) Ali was fat and out of shape. At ighed more for that fight than he did at any time in his career except for his final hurrah against Trevor Berbick.

Jimmy Young made an ass out of Ali---for 15 rounds.

Jimmy Young is hated with a passion by devout members of The Religion of Ali like TheOne

because Jimmy Young outboxed Ali for fifteen continuous rounds

and laughed in Ali's face while he did that.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Being washed-up & over-weight only impacts on a fighter when it suits Granberry, & not at any other time.

LOL.

[ThatOne]

Dear Francis, errrrr Granberry. I hate to be pedantic but there are two rs in embarrass. I only point that out to spare you further embarrassment


Now that we got that out of the way

1) Ali was old for the Young fight-34

2) Ali was shopworn- he was coming off three wars with Frazier, two wars with Norton, and one war with George Foreman. As an aside I never ceased to be amazed at all the fact that Joe Frazier's acolytes never cease to tire of the argument that Joe Frazier was never the same fighter after the FOTC and his less than stellar subsequent performances can be explained away by that fact but Muhammad Ali is pilloried for poor performances at 34, 36, and 38 years old.

3) Ali was fat and out of shape. At ighed more for that fight than he did at any time in his career except for his final hurrah against Trevor Berbick.

Jimmy Young made an ass out of Ali---for 15 rounds.

Jimmy Young is hated with a passion by devout members of The Religion of Ali like TheOne

because Jimmy Young outboxed Ali for fifteen continuous rounds

and laughed in Ali's face while he did that.

Francis- Young lost a hotly contested decision to a shot Ali. That fight is to the legend of Ali what the Dieppe Raid is to the legend of how the Allied Forces acquitted themselves in WW ll.

[granberry]

Yes, the legend of Ali is VERY different from reality.

As Jimmy Young demonstrated for fifteen agonizing rounds for Ali and his walking army of worshippers.

[Jaywheel]

Refreshing read people.

[ThatOne]

Refreshing read people.

He was a bit rough on Larry and the author is no fan of Foreman either. He has an essay on why George Foreman is not a #5 heavyweight. I disagree with that assessment.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Saying Dempsey has a, "surprisingly easy" time with Holmes is quite a stretch, though at least it's a more refreshing take than the hoards of 20-year-olds out there who respond to such a match with, "Holmes easy. He was born way later."

[Jaywheel]

Well you know my love for Holmes...

[BoxBuzz]

Jimmy Young made an ass of Ali.

For all to see.

As I wrote above,

that fight showed Ali could not adjust.

He never did in the entire 15 rounds.

You've changed the topic here I see. But I'll run with this subtext for a moment.

I appreciate what you say here, and as a narrowly stated statement it resonates. But you are using a single event to challenge a statement that is meant to show an ability over an entire career.

By the time of Young fight, much of that ability to adapt to styles was fading. And lets's face it Jimmy Young was quite a talented and skilled boxer in his own right. Jimmy's style would also be one of the most difficult to adapt to as well. Just ask George Foreman. At their peaks, Ali would have dispensed with him with a tough but genuinely earned UD.

This is my opinion.


I also agree with Mike Casey in terms of the spirit of his Holmes article.

[ThatOne]

Jimmy Young made an ass of Ali.

For all to see.

As I wrote above,

that fight showed Ali could not adjust.

He never did in the entire 15 rounds.

You've changed the topic here I see. But I'll run with this subtext for a moment.

I appreciate what you say here, and as a narrowly stated statement it resonates. But you are using a single event to challenge a statement that is meant to show an ability over an entire career.

By the time of Young fight, much of that ability to adapt to styles was fading. And lets's face it Jimmy Young was quite a talented and skilled boxer in his own right. Jimmy's style would also be one of the most difficult to adapt to as well. Just ask George Foreman. At their peaks, Ali would have dispensed with him with a tough but genuinely earned UD.

This is my opinion.


I also agree with Mike Casey in terms of the spirit of his Holmes article.

How would it would have been toug h for a prime Ali?


Young couldn't even hurt geriatric Ali.


Prime Ali would have fought him from a distance and took pot shots at him all night