Larry Holmes' THUMBING

[granberry]

I remember when Leroy Jones spoke on TV just after his loss to Larry Holmes

and said that Holmes thumbed him over and over.

And then Holmes won his very next bout, against Scott Ledoux, with the winning "blow" being a thumb to the eye.

And the very same winning "blow" in a later fight against Scott Frank.

But Fritizie Zivic is routinely called a "dirty" fighter.

[Brutu]

you forgot Earnie Shavers.

[Srebmun]

And the very same winning "blow" in a later fight against Scott Frank.

By brother and I watched this together and I remember at the time we were laughing that Scott took EVERYTHING Larry had to give him, and then some, and that it took a thumb to finish it.

[granberry]

The level of competence of the "sportswriters" at that time was so in the toilet that Scott Frank was ridiculed for complaining that he had been thumbed,

The clueless media which worked to sell Ali and Leonard and whatever else they were instructed to
didn't have a clue what thumbing was.

They actually crowed that Scott Frank was a poor loser and a crybaby for daring to say that he had been thumbed.

[Brutu]

Anyone rember which round of the second fight Holmes thumb detached Shavers retina?

[Brutu]

Larry Holmes had 23 more prof fights then Scott Frank did going into that fight.

It was Franks only professional loss.

Anyone know if the Frank-Snipes fight was televised?

I think one of Frank Scotts amateur fights when he fought and beat a Russian aired on ABC WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS in 1977.

[granberry]

Larry Holmes' thumbing and thumbing and thumbing

Ray Leonard's punching after the bell and on the break

Ali's holding and wrestling

Duran's thumbing of Davey Moore to "win"

Michael Spinks' constant hitting with his elbows

All that crap would never have been allowed by refs in a time of more legitimate boxing.

[BoxBuzz]

good fundamental reason to support the idea of thumbless gloves.

[granberry]

Good reason to have competent referees enforcing the basic rules of boxing

and NOT working blatantly for the designated 'winner.'

[Collins2000]

[Brutu]

In Earnie Shaverrs autobigraphy he claims Holmes thumbed him in the third round in his left eye in their second fight.
He saw three Holmes afterward.

[granberry]

In Earnie Shaverrs autobigraphy he claims Holmes thumbed him in the third round in his left eye in their second fight.
He saw three Holmes afterward.

And these guys just take that and do nothing back?

[Brutu]

In Earnie Shaverrs autobigraphy he claims Holmes thumbed him in the third round in his left eye in their second fight.
He saw three Holmes afterward.

And these guys just take that and do nothing back?

Well Shavers did land a right in the seventh round.He must have aimed at the one in the middle.

[Brutu]

Holmes claimed that Mike Weaver thumbed him in their fight,explaining why he didnt fight so good.

[BoxBuzz]

Larry Holmes' thumbing and thumbing and thumbing

Ray Leonard's punching after the bell and on the break

Ali's holding and wrestling

Duran's thumbing of Davey Moore to "win"

Michael Spinks' constant hitting with his elbows

All that crap would never have been allowed by refs in a time of more legitimate boxing.

I respectfully disagree. If you think the old fighters didn't attempt to win by pressing beyond the limits of the rules, then you granberry, have fallen prey to overly romanticizing the old days. There is little that is "new" under the sun in all these many years of the sweet science. And there are those of us who can successfully recognize the shenanigans of both the older and the contemporary fighters. And of course there are others, who can not.

Now, I don't believe for a moment that you are clueless, and I don't entertain the notion that you are stinking up this thread, and you have surely not taken this thread into the gutter. However though you often have interesting and educational thoughts to share, I believe that in this specific case as in a spattered sampling of your other over zealous moments, you have fallen short in terms of "telling it like it is". At least in my humble opinion.

I also believe than on occasion you may well be guilty of verbal truculence.

[Robinson]

Granberry

tell me about those more legitimate times of ye Olde
Gran, when men were men and would never foul...

Did Dempsey ever break or bend the rules ?
Max Baer ?
What of Rocky Marciano ?
How about James Jeffries?
Or even Jack Johnson ?
Sandy Saddler?
Even modern fighters such as Jimmy Young could have
perhaps.... bent them rules.

I am not appologising for Holmes, thumb meeting the
eye. Want to know something .... ? When wearing
some boxing gloves when throwing a certain jab
I have thumbed guys in the eyes sparring to...not
intentionally...I know other lads that have also..

NOw...... whether there was intent in this who knows,
but I can tell you intentionally landing with a thumb
in the eye while punching is one of the harder fouls
to commit, compared to some of the other ones.

BUT... as you said Holmes DID thumb these men in
the eyes, I agree. IF you think it was his lock on
victory, then that is your priority.

I would like it if you could perhaps discuss those other
men and their fouls from the 'great era' of boxing.

Thanks again Mr Gran.

[BoxBuzz]

Also, Thumbing CAN be an accident. Thus a thumb less glove is not a bad idea.

[granberry]

Yeah, the thumbing "accident"

happened to Leroy Jones, Scott Frank, Scott LeDoux, and Ernie Shavers

when they just happened to be fighting Larry Holmes.

Larry Holmes actually told a Washington Post reporter that he had an injured thumb as a result of his boxing career.

The 'reporter' wasn't competent enough to ask him if his "boxing" matches with Leroy Jones, Scott Frank, Scott LeDoux, and Ernie Shavers, etc. had anything to do with that.

Thumbing is the lowest level and most dangerous foul of all

and Larry Holmes did it repeatedly

without the clueless media ever catching on to his constant 'tactic.'

[BoxBuzz]

Good thing the ref always says....."Protect yourself at all times."

Sounds like we agree on the thumbless glove. Or does it have drawbacks?

[ThatOne]

Hmmm

Ali's wrestling seems relatively benign.

[Robinson]

Granberry

I have often defended you on here. I am not interested
in you hate games, they hurt my little heart.

I was interested in knowing if you thought other fighters
had fouled ? If you think those ones I mentioned were
impervious to such things, then so be it.

[BoxBuzz]

This thread has been cleaned and unlocked, which takes me much time and effort and leaves me grumpy. I very much liked this topic.

Break the rules in this thread (or any other) and earn a warning. 3 warnings and PHHHHT! You're gone!

and special thanks to the detail crew. (you know who you are).

[granberry]

Boxing writers knew so little about the subject by the time Holmes was fighting that they actually ridiculed Scott Frank for complaining that Holmes thumbed him.

[Counter-puncher]

Granberry

tell me about those more legitimate times of ye Olde
Gran, when men were men and would never foul...

Did Dempsey ever break or bend the rules ?
Max Baer ?
What of Rocky Marciano ?
How about James Jeffries?
Or even Jack Johnson ?
Sandy Saddler?
Even modern fighters such as Jimmy Young could have
perhaps.... bent them rules.

I am not appologising for Holmes, thumb meeting the
eye. Want to know something .... ? When wearing
some boxing gloves when throwing a certain jab
I have thumbed guys in the eyes sparring to...not
intentionally...I know other lads that have also..

NOw...... whether there was intent in this who knows,
but I can tell you intentionally landing with a thumb
in the eye while punching is one of the harder fouls
to commit, compared to some of the other ones.

BUT... as you said Holmes DID thumb these men in
the eyes, I agree. IF you think it was his lock on
victory, then that is your priority.

I would like it if you could perhaps discuss those other
men and their fouls from the 'great era' of boxing.

Thanks again Mr Gran.

several interesting points in there

[dberry]

I think it's absolutely remarkable that a boxer, under the pressure of battle, against another boxer who is moving, ducking weaving and guarding can be so accurate as to punch there thumb into the other boxers eye at will. I never new Larry Holmes was that good but there you go. I have a new found respect for Mr. Holmes' ability.