Is it the boxer or trainer who gets fight game success?

[iron rhino]

I'm having a little discussion about who deserves more credit,trainer or boxer.Mike tyson a great boxer would he have been as successful without cuss demato,Would jonny lewis be as succesful without jeff fenech,we all know a knock about fighter,who,with the right direction could be a champ or that well trained fighter who just wont cut it,I don't want fence sitters who say that the stars need to alighn for it all to work,or that promoters have alot to do with it,I just want to break it down to bare bones!is it,fighter or trainer!?

[Hounddawg]

Tuff one, because a guy can land a lucky punch or have the fight of his life in a title and be trained by an average trainer.

But to stay at the top you need a good trainer, so my answer is Trainer!

[adamheight]

60% fighter
40% trainer

look at what teddy atlas did for moorer though...in some cases like that i'd say its the other way around

[Beltane]

50-50 call here - both need each other!

If both show continuous improvement to the best of their abilities, they will be both successful personally, whether or not what shows on the fighters ring record. A boxer needs a trainer also to protect him in the ring if he is being punished or out of his depth in the ring by the use of the towel and to give him a tap on the shoulder when his ring time is up.

[Sweet P]

Id say its around 90% the fighter, The trainer isnt in there fighting.

A good trainer will help the fighter get that little bit extra sometimes. And might work on Gameplans. But at the end of the day he isnt the one in there getting punched in the mouth.

[unleash06]

100% fighter.....

[cjscott]

Id have to say 60/40 to the trainer.The time spent on getting the fighter ready for a fight starts with the ground work from going through foot work,punches,pad work,fitness then the sparing,then the fight plan before one hops into the ring...A boxer cant do all this without the knowledge of his\her trainer.As trainers we pass on the knowledge from what we have learnt and pass it on to our pupils in hope one day they become world champ.When a fighter is in the ring,they are there own person and we hope what we have taught as trainers out side the ring is put together in the ring to make that complete fighter...

[colin russell]

50/50 First and formost there must be harmony between the two. A trainer is the one putting up with a cranky boxer trying to loose weight. If you see a boxer in the corner between rounds just listing to his trainer that is the sign of harmony and respect between the two. Each one makes the other look good. Good trainers are like mothers looking after there young.

[bigred83]

not having ever fought myself i can only speculate, but i feel that a good fighter will always be a good fighter, and good trainer will always be a good trainer, both regardless of who has who to help. having said that there are always gonna be great partnerships, like mosley and his dad(for me, first to spring to mind). i also think more often than not a fighter will out grow a trainer at least once if he has a career of some significance. but then u have some great trainers out there like a freddy roach. i feel this question, while a good one, translates to all sports. state of origin for example, craig bellamy is a great club coach, but cant seem to draw the same out of the blues. so is he crap coach? or crap palyers?? surely neither cos u cant argue with bellamys results(albeit with the controversy) and u cant argue with how many of those blues players have been in aussie teams over last 5 yrs. sorry for the rant guys, so im summary - good fighter, always be a good fighter, good trainer always be a good trainer. i know u didnt want fence sitter rhino, but if a great fighter doesnt line up with a great trainer then neither might end up great, no??? and vice versa. oh and good luck with the recovery too big fella, lookin forward to seein u in the ring again

[adnileb]

I'm having a little discussion about who deserves more credit,trainer or boxer.Mike tyson a great boxer would he have been as successful without cuss demato,Would jonny lewis be as succesful without jeff fenech,we all know a knock about fighter,who,with the right direction could be a champ or that well trained fighter who just wont cut it,I don't want fence sitters who say that the stars need to alighn for it all to work,or that promoters have alot to do with it,I just want to break it down to bare bones!is it,fighter or trainer!?

Who deserves more credit?
because its a broad question there are so many variables and factors to take into consideration.
Are we talking pro/amateur boxers?
Debut pros, seasoned or elite world class?
Part-time/full-time experienced qualified trainer or your local boxercise/aerobics instructor?
How many trainers or camps has the boxer changed?
Is assistant trainers included, strength and conditioning coach, dietitian, masseuse?
naturally talented/athletic boxer or fresh off the street with no skills?
Years/experience?
Is the trainer fully committed to teaching, training the boxer to the best of his ability?
Is the boxer fully committed/focus on learning/training all the necessary skills his trainer teaches in order to become a success plus more?
Is their mutual respect etc etc etc...

Credit equally goes to the team who work well together!. From a general public or fans point of view, credit is mostly only given to the boxer. But we or know, behind every good boxer is a great team! Be it loss or wins...

From my observations in the industry, I have never seen a boxer take credit or become a great success through his own efforts without a good trainer/team. My point, simple formula, 100% committed trainer + 100% dedicated boxer = 50/50 credit!

[madball1982]

Not that I had a lot of success in the ring but I give my trainers as much credit if not more for my performances.
While there is a lot of self-motivation/belief/etc for the boxer to succeed and perform, there is just as much reliance on the trainer's methods/words/etc.
If it wasn't for a trainer teaching me a better way to throw a punch or a different combination or even that kick-up-the-arse coming into the last round if I'm down points for extra motivation I'd be a lot worse a fighter.
I can give a personal example - I had a fight last year where my head trainer and assistant weren't able to be present so two of the more experienced guys from the gym cornered me. I was outweighed by 8kg's and the guy was a lot better than me as well. I was getting smashed and struggling to figure out what else to do as everything different I tried either didn't work or barely worked. Getting to the corner between rounds I basically got nothing from them. These boys were great to do a round on the pads with or to spar, but they couldn't coach. I noticed this a lot and I think it hurt me a bit in the fight too. Had my head trainers been there I'm sure I would've been able to get more advice, different tactics. Would've still lost, but maybe it would've been closer.

So in closing I'd say it's probably a 50/50 split - from my experience.

[patron]

Id say its around 90% the fighter, The trainer isnt in there fighting.

A good trainer will help the fighter get that little bit extra sometimes. And might work on Gameplans. But at the end of the day he isnt the one in there getting punched in the mouth.

you are close to the mark, a good trainer is a maker of fighters, i mean getting a raw novice and moulding him into a fighter, a trainer that gets hold of a n established fighter is only a conditioner,as you said a fighter does the rest, all the best

[Brute]

I'm having a little discussion about who deserves more credit,trainer or boxer.Mike tyson a great boxer would he have been as successful without cuss demato,Would jonny lewis be as succesful without jeff fenech,we all know a knock about fighter,who,with the right direction could be a champ or that well trained fighter who just wont cut it,I don't want fence sitters who say that the stars need to alighn for it all to work,or that promoters have alot to do with it,I just want to break it down to bare bones!is it,fighter or trainer!?

Having an argument with your Dad? ;;-)

[iron rhino]

Having an argument with your Dad? ;;-)[/quote]Dad the fcuken mungril walked out when I was 4,so no,but probably half the reason i'm so cracked!
Adnileb,yeah mate alot of factors contribute to success I dont doubt that,again I asked for bare bones answers,the factors I wanted you to ask yourself ,for me to try and get some real idea of what people really think builds success,I was really after one side or the other,as I know trainers are an important part aswell i'll put my opinion forward and say %80 fighter %20 trainer.Danny green was already good before he went to hyder,hitman harding was already good before he went to lewis (and kostya aswell)I conceed rodger is a better trainer for mayweather,but floyd would have done it anyway(cos of snr).Teddy atlas,freddy roach and the like are outstanding trainers and we all agree on that,but if they are so good why isn't every fighter they train a success!Its because at the end of the day its the FIGHTER!
And big red83,things are looking good with the eye,probly another 3 mnths and it's SHOWTIME BABY!

[kimf]

you cant train heart and determination e.g. gatti therefore more emphasis has to go on the fighter
you can train self belief and build confidence but in the end the fighter has to take the punishment. imagine how much better jermain taylor would be with a heart like gatti's

[adnileb]

Adnileb,yeah mate alot of factors contribute to success I dont doubt that,again I asked for bare bones answers,the factors I wanted you to ask yourself ,for me to try and get some real idea of what people really think builds success,I was really after one side or the other,as I know trainers are an important part aswell i'll put my opinion forward and say %80 fighter %20 trainer.Danny green was already good before he went to hyder,hitman harding was already good before he went to lewis (and kostya aswell)I conceed rodger is a better trainer for mayweather,but floyd would have done it anyway(cos of snr).Teddy atlas,freddy roach and the like are outstanding trainers and we all agree on that,but if they are so good why isn't every fighter they train a success!Its because at the end of the day its the FIGHTER!
And big red83,things are looking good with the eye,probly another 3 mnths and it's SHOWTIME BABY!

Yes Mick, I see where your coming from. I could of given a bare bones answer but I was only addressing your initial question of "who deserves more credit". Its also important for people on this forum to understand the reasoning to why I gave the answers. Everyone will have the own opinions which is fine.

I wanted you to ask yourself ,for me to try and get some real idea of what people really think builds success

Every boxer has a different view or interpretation of what success is for them and the meaning they associate to that success. Without going into too much depth, if you want to know what makes a successful world class boxer, talk to those who have been there and find out exactly what they did and apply the same principles, training methods, psychology, fundamentals, systems until you find something that works for you. I've been fortunate to meet and talk to most of our Ozzie icons, including reading, researching and studying some of the greatest fighters in the world. Most if not all had mentors which they replicated their success after. Whether that be psychologically, physically, spiritually etc. Because of their willingness and determination to learn and apply, they were able to overcome challenges which other boxers would otherwise struggle with or quit all together. Any boxer who thinks otherwise would be naive or disillusioned. Unfortunately some boxers have been caught in this trap and never reach their full potential. They end up doing the same thing which produces the same results. This can be both good and bad. ie winning your fights, becoming fitter stronger, faster and gaining valuable experience or more mentally prepared etc and vice versa... As the importance of a experienced trainer/coach to take the boxer to another level.

Danny green was already good before he went to hyder,hitman harding was already good before he went to lewis (and kostya aswell)I conceed rodger is a better trainer for mayweather,but floyd would have done it anyway(cos of snr).

Yes they were all good before they went to well recognized trainers but you must remember they all started from the beginning. Which meant they would of had to go through a whole host of other trainers along their journey from amateur to pro with varying experiences and training methods/fundamentals in order to help the boxer develop and reach their full potential supported by the boxers own gifted talent/strengths hunger and passion to succeed. If we worked off your 80/20 rule, you will quickly find the trainers credited 20% would compound very quickly according to how many trainers, etc have contributed to the boxers journey. This is only a small slice of the pie as opposed to the overall scheme of things.

Teddy atlas,freddy roach and the like are outstanding trainers and we all agree on that,but if they are so good why isn't every fighter they train a success!Its because at the end of the day its the FIGHTER!

Personally I think, if you can sign up and get any of those mentioned world class trainers to train you full time, you have already succeeded to a certain extent. Most if not all well known credited trainers in the world would not just take on board anyone unless the boxer knew what they wanted and thought you are a potential world champ. Vice versa, a good boxer would launch themselves at the opportunity to be trained by the best based on the wealth of experience and information they could offer you. If that meant giving them that extra 20% to win a world title fight which could be skill, knowledge, motivation, additional resources etc, so be it. That equals 100% success rate which can be contributed equally among the entire team.

Yes at the end of the day, the fighter determines his own ultimate success which could be applied in principle to any thing you really want in life!

fact: less than 5% of the current global active pro boxers will make a successful living from boxing (economically speaking)

[adnileb]

you cant train heart and determination e.g. gatti therefore more emphasis has to go on the fighter
you can train self belief and build confidence but in the end the fighter has to take the punishment. imagine how much better jermain taylor would be with a heart like gatti's

I agree, you can't train heart and determination, but if you don't have the 'know how' skill, stamina, conditioning, self-belief, confidence and trust in your trainer/team and commitment to continually learn on a consistent basis you can become mediocre, stagnant or reach a plateau which boxers will find hard to overcome because they don't know how to recognize or deal with it. Which is why the importance of a experienced trainer/personal development coach plays a key part. Boxers need to exercise some humility, have faith and be willing to be coach-able! no matter what stage they are in their career. As they say "Faith without works is dead"

As Pacquiao mentioned in his interview after the Hatton victory, "he is still learning" which shows he's humble and knows there's areas he could still improve on which makes him a great fighter!

[tanibanana]

for smart & disciplined fighters;
75%- fighter
25%- trainer

for so-so & undisciplined fighters;
60%- fighter
40%- trainer