At What Point Do You Become A Journeyman??

[SAPFO]

Following on from the "Worst Record" thread this. It seems most journeymen are decent boxers, but rarely box to their potential, for fear of not getting work. It got me wondering, does every boxer turn pro as a prospect, and then after a few losses get drafted to the journeyman role? Or do some just became a journeyman from the off?


I bet a few decent boxers have slipt though the net as journeymen over the years, due to hard matching at the start of their careers.

[DavidPayne]

When his only qualification is answering the phone at 6pm and saying yes to the question "Will you make the journey, man?"

[banjo]

Depends on what your definition of a journeyman is, to me Micky Ward is a journeyman - never good enough to beat the elite but was hard enough to seperate the contenders from the pretenders.

[Deserter]

Depends on what your definition of a journeyman is, to me Micky Ward is a journeyman - never good enough to beat the elite but was hard enough to seperate the contenders from the pretenders.

I'd never in a million years call Micky Ward a journeyman. Your defintion is a strange one Banjo as from that it follows that 99% of boxers i.e. the 'non-elite' are journeymen.
I'd personally have described Ward as a 'gatekeeper' based on your point about separating contenders from pretenders - much like the likes of Augustus, Cosme Rivera and on the domestic front, someone like Steve Bendall.
For me, defining a journeyman is all about a boxer's state of mind - any fighter who steps in the ring without a burning desire to actually win the fight has become a journeyman. His primary motivation is pay rather than pride.

[Old bones Ian]

Yeah but i've watched Alex Spitko alot over the past couple of years, and that lad trys to win from what i've seen, he's still a journyman.

[banjo]

Then again though the term journeyman would mean a man who would travel anywhere to fight, so maybe if you disagree with my reasoning Ward is a journeyman. The term for fighters who just turn up for a payday and don't even attempt to win would be more of a spoiler IMO.

[Deserter]

Yeah but i've watched Alex Spitko alot over the past couple of years, and that lad trys to win from what i've seen, he's still a journyman.

Ian I think when we're dealing with such a broad definition and wide range of fighters there are always going to be exceptions to the rule.
Having said that, if you wanted me to make a case for Spitko, I'd argue that while he might 'have a go' in the ring, the difference between a Spitko-type journeyman and a career-orientated fighter is that the latter trains with the same mentality as well - they're focused on winning in terms of their preparation for the fight as well as the fight itself, whereas Spitko, at an educated guess, will 'tick over' in terms of training and wait for the 'jobs' to come in.
If I was to modify my original stab at a definition it would be to say that mental attitude wouldn't just be prevalent between the ropes, but would also inform what they do outside them as well.

[Counter-puncher]

Then again though the term journeyman would mean a man who would travel anywhere to fight, so maybe if you disagree with my reasoning Ward is a journeyman. The term for fighters who just turn up for a payday and don't even attempt to win would be more of a spoiler IMO.

agreed

[Deserter]

Then again though the term journeyman would mean a man who would travel anywhere to fight, so maybe if you disagree with my reasoning Ward is a journeyman. The term for fighters who just turn up for a payday and don't even attempt to win would be more of a spoiler IMO.

That's what it used to mean, but surely even you wouldn't argue that it's now changed from that and has overwhelmingly negative connotations?
If you did a straw poll of fans, I'd be willing to bet that:
a) Hardly any would regard Ward as a journeyman
b) That if they were asked to name the one word that described fighters "who just turn up for a payday and don't attempt to win", that word would be journeyman rather than spoiler in 99% of cases.

[banjo]

Then again though the term journeyman would mean a man who would travel anywhere to fight, so maybe if you disagree with my reasoning Ward is a journeyman. The term for fighters who just turn up for a payday and don't even attempt to win would be more of a spoiler IMO.

That's what it used to mean, but surely even you wouldn't argue that it's now changed from that and has overwhelmingly negative connotations?
If you did a straw poll of fans, I'd be willing to bet that:
a) Hardly any would regard Ward as a journeyman
b) That if they were asked to name the one word that described fighters "who just turn up for a payday and don't attempt to win", that word would be journeyman rather than spoiler in 99% of cases.

Fair point.

[Old bones Ian]

'I sold my soul to the flesh trade. I paraded isolated muscles controlled by an isolated mind. Promoters and managers are the farmers and we are the cattle.'

Michael Murray

[Old bones Ian]

Check out Freddie Roach's boxing record, now he retired with a 39-13 record, but is he a journeyman? as most of his wins were against boxers who were boxing with 50/50 or 60/40 records. When he moved up to take on good boxers with high win ratios records he usually lost.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

[Deserter]

Check out Freddie Roach's boxing record, now he retired with a 39-13 record, but is he a journeyman? as most of his wins were against boxers who were boxing with 50/50 or 60/40 records. When he moved up to take on good boxers with high win ratios records he usually lost.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

“I put my whole life into it and I wanted to be a world champion. I cried that day when he told me it was over and it was just hard to realize that. It’s hard to swallow.”

Those aren't the words of a journeyman.

[Old bones Ian]

Check out Freddie Roach's boxing record, now he retired with a 39-13 record, but is he a journeyman? as most of his wins were against boxers who were boxing with 50/50 or 60/40 records. When he moved up to take on good boxers with high win ratios records he usually lost.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

“I put my whole life into it and I wanted to be a world champion. I cried that day when he told me it was over and it was just hard to realize that. It’s hard to swallow.”

Those aren't the words of a journeyman.

yes i quite agree, but was the promoters looking at Freddie as a made to measure look good for my boxer type thing, so if they needed someone who was good, but not quite good enough they would give him a ring, isn't that a journeyman?

[Deserter]

Check out Freddie Roach's boxing record, now he retired with a 39-13 record, but is he a journeyman? as most of his wins were against boxers who were boxing with 50/50 or 60/40 records. When he moved up to take on good boxers with high win ratios records he usually lost.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

“I put my whole life into it and I wanted to be a world champion. I cried that day when he told me it was over and it was just hard to realize that. It’s hard to swallow.”

Those aren't the words of a journeyman.

yes i quite agree, but was the promoters looking at Freddie as a made to measure look good for my boxer type thing, so if they needed someone who was good, but not quite good enough they would give him a ring, isn't that a journeyman?

Again, I'd call that role a gatekeeper, because of the level and because of the simple fact that in every one of those fights, Roach was going in with a burning desire to win.

[palooka]

I think that journeyman status has changed over the years. It used to imply someone who would travel, face anyone outside of championship class, knew how to fight, fought hard and came conditioned enough to last the distance. A journeyman is not someone who turns up and bails out at the 1st hard exchange or is not conditioned or does not have the rudimentary skills of the trade. A tough nut who likes a fight is not a professional and is not a journeyman.

[mickey1975]

Following on from the "Worst Record" thread this. It seems most journeymen are decent boxers, but rarely box to their potential, for fear of not getting work. It got me wondering, does every boxer turn pro as a prospect, and then after a few losses get drafted to the journeyman role? Or do some just became a journeyman from the off?


I bet a few decent boxers have slipt though the net as journeymen over the years, due to hard matching at the start of their careers.

Nobody turns pro with the intention of becoming a journeyman.Everyone has their hopes and dreams.Sadly,things happen.

[Deserter]

Following on from the "Worst Record" thread this. It seems most journeymen are decent boxers, but rarely box to their potential, for fear of not getting work. It got me wondering, does every boxer turn pro as a prospect, and then after a few losses get drafted to the journeyman role? Or do some just became a journeyman from the off?


I bet a few decent boxers have slipt though the net as journeymen over the years, due to hard matching at the start of their careers.

Nobody turns pro with the intention of becoming a journeyman.Everyone has their hopes and dreams.Sadly,things happen.

Mickey, I honestly think there are a minority who do. They'll turn pro thinking they'll earn a few quid from a sport they enjoy rather than having delusions regarding titles etc. They're a minority, but they're definitely there.

[palooka]

Following on from the "Worst Record" thread this. It seems most journeymen are decent boxers, but rarely box to their potential, for fear of not getting work. It got me wondering, does every boxer turn pro as a prospect, and then after a few losses get drafted to the journeyman role? Or do some just became a journeyman from the off?


I bet a few decent boxers have slipt though the net as journeymen over the years, due to hard matching at the start of their careers.

Nobody turns pro with the intention of becoming a journeyman.Everyone has their hopes and dreams.Sadly,things happen.

I hope that everyone has hopes and dreams; I know lots people have more realistic hopes and expectations. A boxer can still condition themselves well and show discipline and box to their best without having delusions of greatness and wealth. Also; many box as a secondary income (I know of a few who boxed under assumed names in order to remain able to claim benefits); their hopes were to provide for their families and get the finances on a less precarious position.

[Smokin Preedy]

Ward beat Gatti? are you trying to say that Gatti wasn't a member of the boxing elite?

[rhino222]

i think the answer is simple......

you become a journeyman when you start to try to survive......and you stop trying to win. you become a journeyman when the pay packet becomes more important than your ambition !!

[SAPFO]

Ok so let me twist this a little. What if a journeyman raises his standard, and wants to have a crack good crack at winning something. Is there a way back for a journeyman? If a reliable journeyman starts to bang people out, I can imagine he won't get much work.

[hurlock]

i suppose when you box more then 6 times a year.

[rhino222]

Ok so let me twist this a little. What if a journeyman raises his standard, and wants to have a crack good crack at winning something. Is there a way back for a journeyman? If a reliable journeyman starts to bang people out, I can imagine he won't get much work.

jimmy vincent was such a fighter, won 8 of his first 9 fights..then...toyed around the circuit for years, picking up a lot more defeats than victories, fighting well above his ideal weight...suddenly he trains properly, diets properly....sparks out david walker and gets 2 british title opportunities and a WBU tilt aswell......... a great story.

shame he did not end up with a title, but lost his last 3 and retired. he ran david barnes very very close for the british, i personally thought jimmy had done enough...

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

[Old bones Ian]

Journeymen fall into different catagories, there are some that would never reach champion status from the start, they operate at the low level giving young pros a workout.
Then you have the guys that are to dangerous for prospects, but lack the skills to break through to the top level, they tend to beat other lower level journeymen, but lose to the contenders.

And then you have the former contenders or champions, they know that they won't get back to what once was, but keep plugging away, generally getting lower and lower in the standard of opposition that they lose to