Thoughts on Degale-Groves

[Carbo]

I hope the mods don't mind me starting another thread here, but I thought I would draw together my thoughts on the main themes of the night, rather than some of the individual aspects, which have their own threads.

The fight wasn't a barnburner, but it was, in my view, entertaining because of the quality of both men, who looked more experienced than their years, and are far better fighters than would ordinarily be involved in a domestic bout for the British title.

I scored the fight to Degale by two, but there were about three rounds in the middle that were very hard to score, mainly because little happened. They could have been scored even, if even rounds weren't frowned upon in 10 points must scoring, and were therefore pickem stanzas that ultimately decided the fight.

Despite this, I thought Groves 'deserved' the nod, simply because Degale threw that match away. He was never hurt, looked progressively the stronger as the fight went on, and seemed to be boxing within himself. Given that Groves looked increasingly ragged, was hurt, and appeared to leave everything in the ring, one can only come to the conclusion that Degale, if he had stepped it up, and had been willing to trade (as he was walking through Groves's punches by the end) and let go his punches, he would have done that little bit more to swing the one or two rounds he needed to secure the victory.

That's not to take anything away from Groves. He showed that he has the ability to step up to the next level, and also, by putting Booth's brilliant plan into action, that he has a fine boxing brain. Booth deserves, and will get, I'm sure, great credit for comprehensively out-thinking Degale and Jimmy Mac, as there were times in the first five rounds when Degale didn't seem to know what to do with Groves; however, let's not forget that to concentrate like that, and to carry out a plan so well, when you're putting in that kind of physical effort, is quite some feat -- especially at such a young age.

What's wonderful about this fight is that it's probable that Degale will improve as a fighter, and that this fight will help give him the grounding he needs to win world titles. Even if he doesn't improve, and his arrogance prevents him from taking steps to up his game, logically, we need to compare it to the alternative, which is fighting soft touches in guaranteed wins for 20 fights, as Mr. Warren did with his previous generation of top prospects. This, I suggest, never allows a fighter to reach his potential before a title fight and allows bad habits become ingrained through not having puzzles to solve, never having to gut things out, and not being punished for mistakes. So what if he loses? Bad for Mr. Warren's and Degale's bank balance, but good for their long term prospects of creating a legacy. He's ready, after only nine fights, for this type of tough encounter, so it's only to his benefit that he's tested all the way, as fighters used to be.

Two points related to this. First, I thought that one of Mr. Warren's comments during his brave-face interview was telling: "Maybe this will be a blessing. Some of the back-slappers will move on now, and we can get down to business." Perhaps an insight into Degale's entourage? Perhaps, it's just me reading too far between the lines, but the way Degale acts, it really wouldn't surprise me if Warren doesn't like the company he keeps outside the ring.

Second, I wonder if Pay Per View, even though it probably isn't warranted for this level of boxing, does have the upshot of forcing Mr. Warren out of his routine of building reputations based on explosive performances in one-sided fights and undefeated but ultimately padded records? I bet we wouldn't have seen this fight if Sports Network, or whatever they're called now, wasn't trying to build fighters on PPV.

So, to conclude, not a brilliant fight, but still entertaining because great to see two fighters of that quality matched together as prospects, and because boxing so often leaves rivalries -- especially domestic -- unrequited.

And perhaps Degale, like Khan, can emerge from an unexpected, early defeat, as the real winner? Groves will be better, too.

Thoughts?

[lefthook82]

Degale would marmalise him in a rematch if he got a coach that knew his arse from his elbow tactically

[grannyman]

Excellent post. I've often said Degale needs to lose one to progress properly.

[Carbo]

Oh! One thing I forgot. After the Smith fight, I said that one thing that worried me about Degale was that he had a poor jab. I thought that given his speed and accuracy and coordination, the idea he would have a poor jab would seem preposterous, but he did. Well, tonight, it looked better, when he used it. But he used it so rarely.

I believe that if Jimmy Mac had told him to use it far more often, he would have won that fight. It was obvious that that was the way he was going to win against a guy who was counterpunching and using lateral movement like Groves. He needed to close him down behind a jab.

But Groves's looked far better, which isn't good, given that Degale was the faster-handed puncher.

[Lightsoot]

Great post Carbo (I'll drop you a proper reply soon Andy).

I tipped Groves to win, I told loads of people that he'd do it , HOWEVER I thought DeGale knicked it by a round tonight and, begrudgingly agree, that DeGale has potentially the better longterm future if he learns from tonight and hires a more competent trainer.

[Finn]

groves won that fight by locking himself in the gym and getting world class sparring to work on his weaknesses. Degale lost that fight through a lack of quality sparring - how is sparring cleverely going to teach you anything? hes a relative novice himself.

Degale will come back bigger and better - neither man is the finished article and i for one look forward to a big rematch when they are both world champions.

[diddy]

DeGale is still the better prospect and has the brighter future. DeGale will be a tougher matchup for top level fighters than Groves is.

I thought DeGale won by a point, but thought a draw was deserving, neither happened. His lack of punch output was the sole reason he lost. He just needed to flurry here or there and he wins the fight. He landed the more telling shots, he just wasnt busy enough. Groves never buzzed DeGale at all. DeGale backed him up at least 4-5 times with left hooks.

[MR T]

Great post Carbo, I think they key is how Degale reacts to the defeat. The general consesus is that he will dust himself off, come back better etc but this must have hurt his pride so much. Fighting without their air of invicibility (expecting to win) can be a lot more difficult.

[goldenears]

agree
great post Carbo - big test of his mentality now - khan thrived after defeat, prince naz crumbled - what will James do?

the other thing i noticed is that he never went to the body at all. Just didn't work enough and he doesn't have knockout punch power so it's all about piling on pressure with his speed but he never poured it on tonight - even when Groves was hurt he didn't capitalise. He has himself to blame for this and now he's got to show heart and mental strength to come back.

If I was his manager i'd throw him straight back in with someone decent and tell him to prove himself..

[charlieb]

Degale doesn't strike me as the introspective type. I don't think this will leave him questioning his ability or standing, I think he has the kind of self belief that can only be cracked by a devestating knock out loss.

I just think it'll infuriate him to a point where the bitterness and anger fuels him.

I want to make a comparison to Bernard Hopkins somewhere in there, but wouldn't dare.

that said, he does need a new, world class trainer though.

[Carbo]

I think they key is how Degale reacts to the defeat. The general consesus is that he will dust himself off, come back better etc but this must have hurt his pride so much. Fighting without their air of invicibility (expecting to win) can be a lot more difficult.

Agreed.

However, I think that what it might do, if we're lucky, is make him more focused and ruthless in the ring. None of this shoeshine showboating: all in, every fight, totally focussed on winning over anything else. I think he misses that now.

One other thing I forgot: he's a dirty, nasty bastard, Degale, isn't he? I've never seen more blatant use of the shoulder, and he should have definitely had a point deducted for that. Maybe if he had have had a point knocked off, he wouldn't have used the elbow the very next round.

Pretty indecorous stuff -- but then, Degale is indecorous.

[Finn]

Degale doesn't strike me as the introspective type. I don't think this will leave him questioning his ability or standing, I think he has the kind of self belief that can only be cracked by a devestating knock out loss.

I just think it'll infuriate him to a point where the bitterness and anger fuels him.

I want to make a comparison to Bernard Hopkins somewhere in there, but wouldn't dare.

that said, he does need a new, world class trainer though.

He got through that fight through raw talent. He just didnt have the experience or knowledge that groves has obviously gone and learned behind closed doors. His corner had no clue how to deal with groves either and that to me says he needs a better trainer.

[leforge]

Lets hope Mr Warren goes away!

[mrbassie]

I had it for Degale by four and I hope he reads this.
All the same I agree with Johnny Nelson, it was his fight to lose and he lost it. Despite walking groves down constantly he was too keen to throw one then step back. If there's a rematch then Degale should just walk through him.

Chunky, apparently lightning does strike twice. As far as I'm concerned you won and you won fighting the wrong fight.

[Finn]

I had it for Degale by four and I hope he reads this.
All the same I agree with Johnny Nelson, it was his fight to lose and he lost it. Despite walking groves down constantly he was too keen to throw one then step back. If there's a rematch then Degale should just walk through him.

Chunky, apparently lightning does strike twice. As far as I'm concerned you won and you won fighting the wrong fight.

what fight were you watching?

[NazNaci1]

I had it for Degale by four and I hope he reads this.
All the same I agree with Johnny Nelson, it was his fight to lose and he lost it. Despite walking groves down constantly he was too keen to throw one then step back. If there's a rematch then Degale should just walk through him.

Chunky, apparently lightning does strike twice. As far as I'm concerned you won and you won fighting the wrong fight.

what fight were you watching?

Yup, what fight were you watching?

George won, could have gone the other way by a similar margin, but DeGale by 4 rounds??? Never ever, and I hope James reads this.

[Gray-Fox]

Lol at saying Degale won by four.

I just heard from a friend that Degale was training in Spurs' Lodge in front of Ledley King and Defoe lol

No wonder he lost

[leforge]

Lol at saying Degale won by four.

I just heard from a friend that Degale was training in Spurs' Lodge in front of Ledley King and Defoe lol

No wonder he lost

Doubt that! Degale a gooner pudendum like his smug git of promotor!

[Craig14]

Lol at saying Degale won by four.

I just heard from a friend that Degale was training in Spurs' Lodge in front of Ledley King and Defoe lol

No wonder he lost

Doubt that! Degale a gooner pudendum like his smug git of promotor!

Did you go tonight Dave?

[Finn]

Lol at saying Degale won by four.

I just heard from a friend that Degale was training in Spurs' Lodge in front of Ledley King and Defoe lol

No wonder he lost

Doubt that! Degale a gooner pudendum like his smug git of promotor!

he was training at his usual gym and king and defoe went to watch him, it was on behind the ropes.

[Gray-Fox]

Ah OK.

Still though. Footballer scum shouldn#t have been near him.

They wouldnt know or respect hard training if it smacked them in the face.

[Finn]

Ah OK.

Still though. Footballer scum shouldn#t have been near him.

They wouldnt know or respect hard training if it smacked them in the face.

they just want to be cool.

[goldenears]

that will be the biggest night of Groves career. DeGale threw the fight away by coasting and Groves scraped a decision against a much more gifted fighter who should beat him readily in a rematch if he's prepared and focussed.

Any step up in class and Groves will be brutally exposed. if it wasnt for the history and pride on the line i dont think degale would have let the fight stay so negative and let it go that close. Groves didnt want to engage and DeGale should have pressed home his superiority.

DeGale has to get this out of his system and fast

[Finn]

that will be the biggest night of Groves career. DeGale threw the fight away by coasting and Groves scraped a decision against a much more gifted fighter who should beat him readily in a rematch if he's prepared and focussed.

Any step up in class and Groves will be brutally exposed. if it wasnt for the history and pride on the line i dont think degale would have let the fight stay so negative and let it go that close. Groves didnt want to engage and DeGale should have pressed home his superiority.

DeGale has to get this out of his system and fast

Im not sure he will - bar the super six guys and bute who's going to beat him?

[Syntax Error]

groves won that fight by locking himself in the gym and getting world class sparring to work on his weaknesses. Degale lost that fight through a lack of quality sparring - how is sparring cleverely going to teach you anything? hes a relative novice himself.

Degale will come back bigger and better - neither man is the finished article and i for one look forward to a big rematch when they are both world champions.

Good points.

It was good preparation that won George that fight.

DeGale, by contrast was more interested in running his lips off; insulting Groves & trying to make out that the rivalry was some kind of Ali-Frazier thing.

I wonder if DeGale is going to give Groves his purse now?