citizenship in tournaments

[rampage]

I know that you must be a citizen to fight in the big tournaments during Olympic qualifying years, but what about normal years? You don't have to be a citizen then, right? Or does it vary depending on the tournament? My question is for both Open and Junior tournaments.

Also, on a related note, do the winners of the National Junior Olympics qualify for international competition only during Olympic qualifying years, or is that every year?

[boxmel]

I know that you must be a citizen to fight in the big tournaments during Olympic qualifying years, but what about normal years? You don't have to be a citizen then, right? Or does it vary depending on the tournament? My question is for both Open and Junior tournaments.

I'm really surprised that no one has answered your question by now. You MUST be a US citizen to compete in the PAL, the US Championships, the Under-19, the Golden Gloves (when they follow the rule, which is rarely) and the Junior Olympics EVERY year, Olympic or non-Olympic.

Also, on a related note, do the winners of the National Junior Olympics qualify for international competition only during Olympic qualifying years, or is that every year?

It's whenever AIBA schedules the tournament fopr 15-16s.

[rampage]

Crap. OK, thanks for responding. Do you know what the reasoning behind it is? I certainly understand as far as Olympic years go, as well as for other international competition--obviously, if there were no citizenship requirement, then lots of people would try to bring in ringers from other countries, and it would no longer be the best of one country vs. the best of another, resulting in a huge mess. But for the normal years and for tournaments that don't result in placement on national teams for international competition, it seems like a frivolous rule. It seems like all it does is take away opportunities from good boxers who may not be citizens, and I don't see any positives. Is there an angle that I'm missing?

So for the junior international competition, it isn't necessarily every year, but it may be? It's just kind of whenever the AIBA decides to have international fights?

Again, thank you for taking the time to respond.

*EDIT* I just looked at the USA Boxing rulebook (guess I could have just done that from the start, but I wanted to be able to communicate with someone, rather than just look at a book, so that I could ask follow up questions--I also didn't think it would take so long to get a response, haha) and under article 101.9 it says that a non-citizen IS ALLOWED to compete in advancing tournaments, as long as they are permanent residents and the tournament doesn't lead to international competition. Are you sure you are correct? Did they make any kind of change in the rulebook?

[Slythex]

My understanding is that the issue with citizenship for the PAL, GG, USAB Nationals, etc., even on a non-Olympic year is that they all serve as qualifiers for the national team who get to do duals and other international events. Because all of those tournaments 'lead (although possibly indirectly) to international completitions' as far as choosing a national team, they require citizenship.

[boxmel]

EDIT* I just looked at the USA Boxing rulebook (guess I could have just done that from the start, but I wanted to be able to communicate with someone, rather than just look at a book, so that I could ask follow up questions--I also didn't think it would take so long to get a response, haha) and under article 101.9 it says that a non-citizen IS ALLOWED to compete in advancing tournaments, as long as they are permanent residents and the tournament doesn't lead to international competition. Are you sure you are correct? Did they make any kind of change in the rulebook?

I'm not sure where you looked but when I looked, 101.9 reads as follows: Restricted participation (2) Foreign Athletes. Foreign athletes are barred from participation in advancing local, regional and national tournaments or any box-offs that would lead to international competition." There is nothing that states there are any exceptions on non-Olympic qualifying years. Non-citizens can participate in Ringside, Title, Ohio State Fair, Black Gloves, Desert Showdown tournaments as they do not advance.

The AIBA calendar shows the following for 2011 Junior events: AIBA Women's Junior/Youth World Boxing Championships, April 21 - May 1, Antalya, Turkey and AIBA Junior World Boxing Championships, July 20-31, Astana, Kazakhstan.

And Slythex's understanding is correct. (I hate it when you're right!)

[rampage]

EDIT* I just looked at the USA Boxing rulebook (guess I could have just done that from the start, but I wanted to be able to communicate with someone, rather than just look at a book, so that I could ask follow up questions--I also didn't think it would take so long to get a response, haha) and under article 101.9 it says that a non-citizen IS ALLOWED to compete in advancing tournaments, as long as they are permanent residents and the tournament doesn't lead to international competition. Are you sure you are correct? Did they make any kind of change in the rulebook?

I'm not sure where you looked but when I looked, 101.9 reads as follows: Restricted participation (2) Foreign Athletes. Foreign athletes are barred from participation in advancing local, regional and national tournaments or any box-offs that would lead to international competition." There is nothing that states there are any exceptions on non-Olympic qualifying years. Non-citizens can participate in Ringside, Title, Ohio State Fair, Black Gloves, Desert Showdown tournaments as they do not advance.

The AIBA calendar shows the following for 2011 Junior events: AIBA Women's Junior/Youth World Boxing Championships, April 21 - May 1, Antalya, Turkey and AIBA Junior World Boxing Championships, July 20-31, Astana, Kazakhstan.

And Slythex's understanding is correct. (I hate it when you're right!)

I looked at the version USA boxing has for download on their website. It is true that they don't mention anything about qualifying years. I am referring to the chart underneath what you cited. In it, it lists five types of athletes: citizens, permanent residents, refugees, incarcerated people, and non-residents. Next to each category, it lists the types of competition they are eligible for. In this chart, it states that a permanent resident may compete in advancing tournaments not leading to international competition.

[boxmel]

a permanent resident may compete in advancing tournaments not leading to international competition.

Correct. However, US Championships, PAL, Golden Gloves (all ranking tournaments), JO Championships and Under-19 all lead to international competition. Advancing tournaments NOT leading to international competition are Ringside, Title, Ohio State Fair, etc.

[rampage]

a permanent resident may compete in advancing tournaments not leading to international competition.

Correct. However, US Championships, PAL, Golden Gloves (all ranking tournaments), JO Championships and Under-19 all lead to international competition. Advancing tournaments NOT leading to international competition are Ringside, Title, Ohio State Fair, etc.

That makes no sense to me. Isn't an advancing tournament the kind where you have to win at a district/state/regional level in order to advance the nationals? I was under the impression that that was what "advancing" meant. On the other hand, I thought a non-advancing tournament would be something like Title, Ringside, etc., because, while it is a tournament, you don't have to win anything to get there--you simply sign up and fight, but you don't advance anywhere if you win nor do you have to advance from anywhere in order to compete, hence the name: non-advancing. But if that isn't the case, then what would be an example of a non-advancing tournament?

As for the tournaments we are discussing leading to international competition, that also seems strange. Sure, they put you on the radar for joining the national team, but they don't directly lead to it. It isn't like it's the next step, it's simply an option that you may be able to take advantage of if you want to and are selected. Furthermore, it isn't the case that a winner, should he happen to be foreign, is taking away a chance from a citizen, because you need not win those tournaments to qualify for international comp, (of course, the winners are the first choice, but they don't necessarily have to compete). If it is true that non-citizens are dq'd from those tournaments because they may, possibly, perchance, sometimes lead to a fighter being selected, from a pool of other fighters, to participate in international comp, that is a shame. It seems like all they would have to do is pick one of the many other top fighters who are citizens--they're still available, regardless of whether they lose to a foreigner in a big tournament.

[JMac]

Rampage,

Some national tournaments like the US JO's or U-19 take the winners to international tournaments like the cadet or junior worlds or in the case of the US Championships or Olympic trials...winners go to the senior worlds depending if it is the year before or after the Olympics.

Other ranking tournaments like the PAL or GG's give the boxers a ranking based on where they finished. When the US is boxing duals or low level world tournaments, USAB takes ranked boxers. Let's say they want to take the number 1 ranked boxer but he can't go for some reason, then they go to no. 2 and down the line if the higher ranked boxer can't go. Letting non citizen boxers in ranking US tournaments can have an effect on the outcome of where a boxer finishes. So it makes sense to not let them in. They can always go box in the country of their origin if they want to compete internationally which many boxers have done over the years when it comes time for the Olympics.

[rampage]

Rampage,

Some national tournaments like the US JO's or U-19 take the winners to international tournaments like the cadet or junior worlds or in the case of the US Championships or Olympic trials...winners go to the senior worlds depending if it is the year before or after the Olympics.

Other ranking tournaments like the PAL or GG's give the boxers a ranking based on where they finished. When the US is boxing duals or low level world tournaments, USAB takes ranked boxers. Let's say they want to take the number 1 ranked boxer but he can't go for some reason, then they go to no. 2 and down the line if the higher ranked boxer can't go. Letting non citizen boxers in ranking US tournaments can have an effect on the outcome of where a boxer finishes. So it makes sense to not let them in. They can always go box in the country of their origin if they want to compete internationally which many boxers have done over the years when it comes time for the Olympics.

I understand that, but it seems like an easy fix--if a resident wins a tournament, you simply send the person he beat to the international fight. It doesn't change who goes, because he was still the top fighter in the other bracket (I know, that's slightly simplified because the resident may have beaten a fighter in the first round who otherwise would have won the tournament, depending on the draw, but that can happen regardless--the draw always greatly influences how a tournament is decided). In the case of simply drawing from ranked fighters to go to lesser international comp, there will still be plenty of them available--I highly doubt there will be more than a few residents in the top 10, so they can draw from the remaining fighters, who would likely be the top fighters anyway were there no residents in the rankings. Not that big a deal.

They really can't always go to the country of their origin to compete. It isn't that simple. They have moved to America to make a life here--it isn't like they can just hop on a plane and go home whenever they want to fight in their countries' big tournaments, especially in the case of kids. Granted, if they are serious they can, and do, try that for the Olympics, but it isn't even necessarily about competing internationally. Again, America is now their home, and many just want the chance to fight the best here. USA Boxing is supposed to exist to help (primarily) kids and young adults--not just citizens. By not allowing them to fight in the major tournaments they are taking away opportunities from them. It is a discriminatory rule, and they are taking away opportunities from a significant portion of their athletes.

Again, I absolutely understand not allowing them to compete in international fights--that would create chaos because then you would have foreign fighters being brought here simply to try to win in international comp. But to not let them fight in the big national tournaments? That's just wrong. Again, all you have to do is send the second best fighter to the international shows--he would likely be the best fighter anyway if he hadn't been beaten by a foreigner, so it changes little other than to give more young people more opportunities.

As for the wording of the rulebook--that needs to be changed. It is exceptionally misleading. If that is the case, they shouldn't even claim that permanent residents may compete in advancing tournaments not leading to international comp, because apparently all advancing tournaments do lead to that.

I also thought of something else--what about the World Series of Boxing? The American franchises had plenty of foreign athletes on their teams. The WSB definitely leads to international comp, either when the American teams fight the Mexican team or when they go to the World Championships against the other divisions. So how can they allow that?

[boxmel]

I understand that, but it seems like an easy fix--if a resident wins a tournament, you simply send the person he beat to the international fight.

You may not like the rule and you may think it's misleading. Lots of us have spent time trying to explain how it works and my last words are, it isn't going to change. Non-residents will not be allowed to compete in US Championships, Golden Gloves, Under 19, PAL or Junior Olympic championships. Period. Many of our non-resident boxers have had no problems competing for their countries (please remember that most are from Mexico, Central and South America, Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic - all places easy to get to, especially when those countries are eager to use talent provided through U.S. training) - Francisco Bojado, Abner Mares, Oscar Molina (who has dual citizenship) are a few names that come to mind.

WSB? Totally different concept, rules, having nothing to do with USA Boxing.

[Slythex]

Few follow up thoughts:

USA Boxing is supposed to exist to help (primarily) kids and young adults--not just citizens. By not allowing them to fight in the major tournaments they are taking away opportunities from them. It is a discriminatory rule, and they are taking away opportunities from a significant portion of their athletes.

While I wish that were the mission of USA Boxing, as the NGB (national governing body) their primary mission is to win as many medals as possible in the olympics. Even support to the grass roots is designed to help develop elite athletes, who can then try and win medals... (I'm not saying I agree with this, but it is what it is)

There's definitely an ongoing debate regarding USAB efforts and resources dedicated to the elite athletes versus the grass roots, and what's the right balance. Depending on the year, budget, etc, this seems to fluctuate a bit. Also USOC funds granted to USAB are almost exclusively designed for the elite athlete programs. This year in particular, as it's an Olympic qualifying year, the focus is definitely geared towards the elite boxers eligible for the olympics (i.e. citizens).

By the way, as far as I know, an advancing tournament which does not lead to international competition is the Silver Gloves. And if I'm wrong, I'm sure mel and others will happily correct me.

[boxmel]

By the way, as far as I know, an advancing tournament which does not lead to international competition is the Silver Gloves. And if I'm wrong, I'm sure mel and others will happily correct me.

I really, REALLY hate it when you're right! 8) Just kidding. Yes, SG is one of the advancing tournaments that does not lead to international competition. They also have different age and weight rules/exceptions than JOs.