Clay Ali Liston

[The Second God]

Comment on these fights.

I saw the first Clay / Liston fight on closed circuit. Outside after on the sidewalk there was a fat guy with a cigar handing out money to a line of people. It was a long line.

Clay was an 8 to 1 underdog or somewhere in that vicinity. The Ring magazine had produced an artistic purview, pencil sketch art if I recall, on how Liston would get him into a corner and club him to death. Clay was given no chance by those in the know.

As it turned out the official result shows The Ring Magazine to have not understood things correctly.

Clay damned near quit, and then Liston actually did quit.

How do things like this happen in a heavyweight title bout? The fight was surrounded with hype and pretense.

Then in the second fight the referee forgets how to count to ten.

I did see the punch. It is the same right hand he was able to employ against Machen, Folley and Williams. They're all on youtube and this right hand is totally impressive. He lost it after the layoff. That's one of the things he lost.

What are your thoughts about these fights?

[mrbassie]

Two farces to be frank. I don't know what to make of the shoulder in the first fight; Dundee in his book said that he had heard that Liston had hurt his shoulder before the fight, he also says he saw Liston's corner rubbing lotion of some sort into the shoulder and that's what he believes got onto the gloves. That's quite far removed from the story everybody tells on documentaries about Liston's trainer juicing his gloves and then throwing the bottle under the ring. So which is true? All these guys love telling stories more than they love facts, look at the story about Cooper's glove which I've heard Dundee echo more than once but we all know is a complete fantasy.
The one thing you can probably take as fact is that Liston was in poor condition and completely underestimated Ali. For me this was the best performance of Ali's entire career against arguably his best opponent.

As for fight two...well again, what to believe? Somebody made a post on here a while ago alluding to a story told by a Scottish guy who as a child had befriended Liston while he was visiting Britain, apparently he spoke to Liston after the rematch and Liston told him several muslims had threatened him in his dressing room before the fight. That's at least plausible, I mean the NOI were no a bunch of pious clerics, they were a heavily armed brainwashed heretical cult. They were dangerous people. The counter to that which I've heard from for instance Larry Merchant on various docus is that 'oh well why would he be afraid of them if he was with the mob?'. That doesn't hold water for me, being a low level associate of a few mafiosi's does not make one bullet proof or impossible to get to. And if they had offed Liston It wouldn't be something that required any vendetta on the mobs part. Liston's a black guy who's wages they steal, he's not Don Corleone's favourite Neice.
Or of course there is what is immediately obvious just from watching the fight, Ali scored a flash knockdown over an overextended Liston who then rolled on the floor over-dramatically and didn't get up because Ali refused to go to a neutral corner. Walcott lost control and then laughably stopped the fight because Nat Fleischer told him to.

What to believe? we'll never know for certain. but as I say. both in their own ways farcical fights.

[The Second God]

I pretty much remember the stories you mentioned. Liston ended up dead in less than savory circumstances.

I thought the first fight was fairly good. Ali's tendency to grab around the shoulders would explain your point of view about the liniment. I recall bursitis in the shoulder being mentioned.

No one gave Clay a chance in the fight. Liston may have taken him too easy.

The second one was bizzare. It seems that the venue was hard to find. The NOI was definately meddling with Ali's mind at that period of his life. He was useful to their recruitment just for the name value.

It's clear Ali was radicalized by the association with the black Muslim philosophy. But I think it is safe to say he did not hang with them for too long. I truly respect and admire the guy today. I'm glad he's not hungry or broke.

[Crease]

For the first fight, I don't think there was a shoulder injury. I think that excuse was used as a "get out" for Sonny.
The problem for "The Big Bad Bear" was that he simply couldn't catch Clay and the chllenger frustrated him.
Plus Clay was able to hit back and wasn't afraid of him (like Patterson).

As for the second fight, I eblieve that Liston's people "pumped him up" and give him false encouragement, like he was unlucky in the first fight and done their best to convcie Sonny that he could beat Clay.
Sadly they were mistaken,. and Sonny knew he was in for another long night asgainst the new Champ.

[The Second God]

For the first fight, I don't think there was a shoulder injury. I think that excuse was used as a "get out" for Sonny.
The problem for "The Big Bad Bear" was that he simply couldn't catch Clay and the chllenger frustrated him.
Plus Clay was able to hit back and wasn't afraid of him (like Patterson).

As for the second fight, I eblieve that Liston's people "pumped him up" and give him false encouragement, like he was unlucky in the first fight and done their best to convcie Sonny that he could beat Clay.
Sadly they were mistaken,. and Sonny knew he was in for another long night asgainst the new Champ.

I recall reading that Patterson was terrified of fighting Liston. But he did it twice and I give him credit, I would not have fought him a second time. It is not a shame to be beaten by Sonny Liston.

Liston was the 25th child of a sharecropper. (Might be wrong on the number) He did better than most born into circumstances like that. I recall reading that someone asked how he had scars on his back. His answer was that he had had some dealing with his father.


Sonny is a sad case but he did good for himself given his circumstances.

[Ezzard]

Liston had fought something like 5-6 rounds in 4 years going into the first fight. He was a drinker who was trading on his intimidation and power. He did totally underestimate Clay/Ali.

I read that Liston was fired up for the rematch and got himself into great shape but the fight was postponed due to an injury. Liston couldn’t or wouldn’t get himself into that kind of shape again and when the fight really did come round he knew he had little chance…

The NOI are a bunch of morons. But race quality being what it was I can understand why young men would be attracted to them.