A comment from another poster (I think it might have been Flawed Genius) on here got me thinking, are we too nice to our home fighters.
Basically, the comment was concerning Julius Francis, the writer said he was amazed when he saw pictures of Francis vs Reid, as to how thin he looked compared to his last few fights.
His final comment was "don't blame him he's pushing 40".
Now, I haven't heard that many people here shout that Francis should back it in or Francis could be seriously damaging his health by continuing. Not that many people have really said Francis is shot, I am also responsible for this - I have been saying stuff like "Okay, Julius may be on a very bad losing streak, but he's fighting at an higher level than usual".
Now, compare that with our thoughts concerning Evander Holyfield - look at the difference. Up untill the Toney fight, Evander was at least competitive at the highest level, he didn't do to badly against Byrd with a torn rotator cuff. Toney style wise was all wrong for Holyfield, but whats stopping him doing against the slower world class fighters (i.e. McCline) - he did so against Rahman.
Why aren't we saying the same things about/to Julius as we are about Holyfield and Tapia also.
Are we too nice to our home fighters.
Re: Are we too nice to our home fighters.
It's a good point Stu, but apart from the level they're at there are big differences between Holyfield and Francis.
Evander has been a professional fighter for 20 years to Julius's 10. Okay Francis has suffered plenty of inside schedule defeats but rarely has he taken a terrible battering - he knows when he's beaten and when it's time to get out. With Holyfield it's the exact opposite.
Style wise they're worlds apart. Even now Evander wants to swap leather from the first bell, while Francis keeps his chin tucked right down and looks to survive any early onslaught.
The reason we're not concerned about Francis facing the young (well, younger) Skelton is because we know he won't take a beating. He'll quit before that happens. Holyfield on the other hand will try and fight until he can no longer stand, as was the case against Toney on that awful night last October.
Peace.
Evander has been a professional fighter for 20 years to Julius's 10. Okay Francis has suffered plenty of inside schedule defeats but rarely has he taken a terrible battering - he knows when he's beaten and when it's time to get out. With Holyfield it's the exact opposite.
Style wise they're worlds apart. Even now Evander wants to swap leather from the first bell, while Francis keeps his chin tucked right down and looks to survive any early onslaught.
The reason we're not concerned about Francis facing the young (well, younger) Skelton is because we know he won't take a beating. He'll quit before that happens. Holyfield on the other hand will try and fight until he can no longer stand, as was the case against Toney on that awful night last October.
Peace.
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DG.
- Heavyweight
bennie wrote:True, indeed. Some fighters need protecting from themselves (I can think of a Northern Irishman who that applies to), whereas Francis has the 'smarts' to know when he's not going to win and when enough is enough.
Also - look at the defeats Francis has suffered - I can not think of 1 in side schedule defeat that involved a head shot ?..
Tyson - Body.
Ruiz, Body
Mavrovic, Body ( ? )
Sinan Samil Sam, Body
Julius was stabbed pretty badly in the stomach on his younger days - IMO - that has a lot to do with why he hates it to the body more than any heavyweight I can remember.
Julius has a very good chin - who as seen him shaken ?.. Not me..
Williams 2nd fight was an eye injury..
Head shots are more damaging and Julius has a better defense than
Evander ( AGAINST THEIR RESPECTIVE OPPOSITION ).
Not sure if Klitschko stopped him with body or head shots ?.
Very incisive post. Good stuff.DG. wrote:bennie wrote:True, indeed. Some fighters need protecting from themselves (I can think of a Northern Irishman who that applies to), whereas Francis has the 'smarts' to know when he's not going to win and when enough is enough.
Also - look at the defeats Francis has suffered - I can not think of 1 in side schedule defeat that involved a head shot ?..
Tyson - Body.
Ruiz, Body
Mavrovic, Body ( ? )
Sinan Samil Sam, Body
Julius was stabbed pretty badly in the stomach on his younger days - IMO - that has a lot to do with why he hates it to the body more than any heavyweight I can remember.
Julius has a very good chin - who as seen him shaken ?.. Not me..
Williams 2nd fight was an eye injury..
Head shots are more damaging and Julius has a better defense than
Evander ( AGAINST THEIR RESPECTIVE OPPOSITION ).
Not sure if Klitschko stopped him with body or head shots ?.
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DG.
- Heavyweight
bennie wrote:Very incisive post. Good stuff.DG. wrote:bennie wrote:True, indeed. Some fighters need protecting from themselves (I can think of a Northern Irishman who that applies to), whereas Francis has the 'smarts' to know when he's not going to win and when enough is enough.
Also - look at the defeats Francis has suffered - I can not think of 1 in side schedule defeat that involved a head shot ?..
Tyson - Body.
Ruiz, Body
Mavrovic, Body ( ? )
Sinan Samil Sam, Body
Julius was stabbed pretty badly in the stomach on his younger days - IMO - that has a lot to do with why he hates it to the body more than any heavyweight I can remember.
Julius has a very good chin - who as seen him shaken ?.. Not me..
Williams 2nd fight was an eye injury..
Head shots are more damaging and Julius has a better defense than
Evander ( AGAINST THEIR RESPECTIVE OPPOSITION ).
Not sure if Klitschko stopped him with body or head shots ?.
In the abscence of a 'thumbs up'...
ta !
The finances between Holyfield and Francis are worlds apart as well. I would imagine that Julius is not short by any stretch of the imagination, but I would of thought (I might be wrong) that this is his best chance of earning really good money and he will understandably be looking to stock-pile some for the rest of his life, where as Holyfield is a multi-multi-millionaire.
Even though Julius has been losing recently he has not been outclassed (maybe except Maskaev, I haven't seen the fight) and has been unlucky to get a few dodgy decisions. Where as Evander is losing to people who he wouldn't have done a few years ago and everybody can see him deteriate before their eyes and it brings back bad memories of other boxers who went on too long.
Even though Julius has been losing recently he has not been outclassed (maybe except Maskaev, I haven't seen the fight) and has been unlucky to get a few dodgy decisions. Where as Evander is losing to people who he wouldn't have done a few years ago and everybody can see him deteriate before their eyes and it brings back bad memories of other boxers who went on too long.
That was my point though with Francis, as the writer in the thread that inspired the topic said. Francis' weight gain and looks completely different to a prime Francis. So yes, you can see the deterioation.Chambers wrote:The finances between Holyfield and Francis are worlds apart as well. I would imagine that Julius is not short by any stretch of the imagination, but I would of thought (I might be wrong) that this is his best chance of earning really good money and he will understandably be looking to stock-pile some for the rest of his life, where as Holyfield is a multi-multi-millionaire.
Even though Julius has been losing recently he has not been outclassed (maybe except Maskaev, I haven't seen the fight) and has been unlucky to get a few dodgy decisions. Where as Evander is losing to people who he wouldn't have done a few years ago and everybody can see him deteriate before their eyes and it brings back bad memories of other boxers who went on too long.
James Toney was the first time Holyfield was outclassed and he beat Rahman only 3 fights ago. Lets not forget, going by the scorecards on the general forum Francis lost to a fighter clearly (in Steffan Neilson) he beat clearly a few fights previously. I didn't see the fight, but most reports suggests Francis was wrong in his claims that he was robbed.
Stu,
It wasn't me who mentioned the Francis - Reid pictures but that's by the by.
I personally agree that we are sometimes 'too nice' to our own fighters, but I don't think Julius is the best example.
He's a wily old boy and knows his way around a ring. If you're not overly offensive and are down with the blocking and rolling with the shots you can hang about on the heavyweight journeyman scene as long as you want and the chance of getting badly hurt are minimal.
I'm not saying Julius doesn't want to win anymore, I'm sure he does, but he does know that he can earn decent, regular purses by not posing as much of a threat as he perhaps could've done. I fancy though that when he goes in with Skelton he'll take a few more risks than he's been doing against the europro's.
It wasn't me who mentioned the Francis - Reid pictures but that's by the by.
I personally agree that we are sometimes 'too nice' to our own fighters, but I don't think Julius is the best example.
He's a wily old boy and knows his way around a ring. If you're not overly offensive and are down with the blocking and rolling with the shots you can hang about on the heavyweight journeyman scene as long as you want and the chance of getting badly hurt are minimal.
I'm not saying Julius doesn't want to win anymore, I'm sure he does, but he does know that he can earn decent, regular purses by not posing as much of a threat as he perhaps could've done. I fancy though that when he goes in with Skelton he'll take a few more risks than he's been doing against the europro's.