Video : Has a heavyweight fallen so hard to the canvas??

[Quixall]

This is the first fight between Lewis and Rahman.....................

I'd forgotten how bad a knock-out it was !!

I don't think a heavyweight has fallen as hard to the canvas as Lennox did on this night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qBe10Ue ... re=related

[MightyWarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEaDtbGzMb4

2:20 in......Shavers knocks down Holmes. I've never seen a fighter hit so hard then get up and win the fight. Even more amazing when you realise he's been hit full blooded by possibly the hardest puncher in heavyweight history. Larry Holmes, what a legend.

[iamasadlittleboy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE8KnNse ... r_embedded

Timber!

[Quixall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEaDtbGzMb4

2:20 in......Shavers knocks down Holmes. I've never seen a fighter hit so hard then get up and win the fight. Even more amazing when you realise he's been hit full blooded by possibly the hardest puncher in heavyweight history. Larry Holmes, what a legend.

That was a good punch and like you say olmes did well to get up because it was Shavers throwing it. The lewis one i think has more impact because he just bounces on the canvas, his whole body weight just falls !!

I remember when Holmes was asked who hit the hardest and the interviewer mentioned Mike Tyson and Holmes stated that it was Mike's speed that was the problem, but for pur power it was Shavers all the way !!

[Quixall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE8KnNse ... r_embedded

Timber!

How fornicating tall was that guy

[Syntax Error]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEaDtbGzMb4

2:20 in......Shavers knocks down Holmes. I've never seen a fighter hit so hard then get up and win the fight. Even more amazing when you realise he's been hit full blooded by possibly the hardest puncher in heavyweight history. Larry Holmes, what a legend.

That was a good punch and like you say olmes did well to get up because it was Shavers throwing it. The lewis one i think has more impact because he just bounces on the canvas, his whole body weight just falls !!

I remember when Holmes was asked who hit the hardest and the interviewer mentioned Mike Tyson and Holmes stated that it was Mike's speed that was the problem, but for pur power it was Shavers all the way !!

I remember Larry saying straight after the Tyson fight that being hit by Tyson was like being hit by a Corvette, but being hit by Shavers was like being hit by a truck.

[MightyWarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEaDtbGzMb4

2:20 in......Shavers knocks down Holmes. I've never seen a fighter hit so hard then get up and win the fight. Even more amazing when you realise he's been hit full blooded by possibly the hardest puncher in heavyweight history. Larry Holmes, what a legend.

That was a good punch and like you say olmes did well to get up because it was Shavers throwing it. The lewis one i think has more impact because he just bounces on the canvas, his whole body weight just falls !!

I remember when Holmes was asked who hit the hardest and the interviewer mentioned Mike Tyson and Holmes stated that it was Mike's speed that was the problem, but for pur power it was Shavers all the way !!

Holmes had amazing recovery powers. Snipes knockdown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlu4R_ZobU0

When Tyson pinged him Larry had his arm trapped in the ropes as he was trying to fire back. Holmes was the greatest heavyweight of all time in my opinion.

I was tearing my hair out when Snipes knocked him over, seeing the dream Cooney fight disappearing before my eyes. A few months later I was at the Hammersmith Odeon at 3am watching the live feed of Holmes/Cooney. I think I was the only one there cheering on Larry.

[Quixall]

That was a good punch and like you say olmes did well to get up because it was Shavers throwing it. The lewis one i think has more impact because he just bounces on the canvas, his whole body weight just falls !!

I remember when Holmes was asked who hit the hardest and the interviewer mentioned Mike Tyson and Holmes stated that it was Mike's speed that was the problem, but for pur power it was Shavers all the way !!

Holmes had amazing recovery powers. Snipes knockdown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlu4R_ZobU0

When Tyson pinged him Larry had his arm trapped in the ropes as he was trying to fire back. Holmes was the greatest heavyweight of all time in my opinion.

I was tearing my hair out when Snipes knocked him over, seeing the dream Cooney fight disappearing before my eyes. A few months later I was at the Hammersmith Odeon at 3am watching the live feed of Holmes/Cooney. I think I was the only one there cheering on Larry.

Ah Gerry Cooney, now when he fell.........................he really fell !!

[MightyWarrior]

I always thought that if Lennox had had the same ref as Holmes/Shavers, he would have been given a chance to carry on when he got up from the McCall knockdown.....Larry looked in worse shape there, he staggered away from the ref before being waved on. ( note the daft US broadcasters cut to an add break after that round, unbelieveable )

[Old bones Ian]

I liked the way that Larry used to get up and walk around the ring holding the rope, that way he got himself an extra couple of seconds to try and recover as the ref would be trying to get his attention, it was either clever or something he did without thinking.

for me he has one of the best chins in heavyweight history

[MightyWarrior]

Holmes was a truly smart fighter, maybe 2nd only to Ali - I'd pick Ali to beat him on points, but he probably had the beating of anyone else you can name. Great that he's kept his money too. We need another interview with him in boxing monthly ( though he'd probably want paying ! ) The best thing about Haye's HW career was that he nicked Larry's entrance music.

[Karl Jade]

Audley knocking out Sprott was brutal. I thought Sprott was dead.

[Exoddus]

Just because a guys head doesn't bounce off the canvas doesn't mean it wasn't a brutal KO. Take this classic for an example. Jersey Joe just collapses when Marciano hits him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-v4OtvXRcQ

4:43

As for recovering from a big shot. Ruddock Vs Morrison. Granted he didn't go on and win the fight, but how he got up was impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzPB6I9R6LE

1:18

[orbtastic]

Derrick Jefferson vs Mo Harris was pretty hard, albeit slow motion.

[Lenny]

I always thought that if Lennox had had the same ref as Holmes/Shavers, he would have been given a chance to carry on when he got up from the McCall knockdown.....Larry looked in worse shape there, he staggered away from the ref before being waved on. ( note the daft US broadcasters cut to an add break after that round, unbelieveable )

It's something I've brought up before when people try and compare fighters from different eras. Holmes may well not have been given the opportunity to prove his amazing recovery powers had he been boxing today and some people would point to him and wrongly claim he had a glass jaw. Now whilst I don't think Lennox was on his way to a recovery with the Rahman knockout (and already looked fcuked) who knows how he may have comeback from the McCall knockdown?

I'm not saying it is a bad thing fights are stopped sooner nowadays, just that i'm sure nobody would be proclaiming Holmes as one of the all time greats had he boxed today.

[Quixall]

I'm not saying it is a bad thing fights are stopped sooner nowadays, just that i'm sure nobody would be proclaiming Holmes as one of the all time greats had he boxed today.

Yes, because he'd have been pinged and stopped by single shots from hard hitting contenders such as, erm...

If Holmes boxed today we'd view him as some mind boggling alien being sent from Valhalla via Norway. Half the modern heavies who tried to throw rights like that would twat themselves in the balls and spill at least four ringside drinks.

Maybe a better way to look at it would be to say that had the modern day refs been in charge of the fights back in holmes' era, then he wouldn't have been seen as such a great heavyweight due to premature stoppages. I agree, there are no modern heavyweights that would have put Holmes in any trouble at all.

[Lenny]

Well then alternatively, people would say he wasn't good enough to carry Ken Norton's jockstrap due to the lack of decent competition to test him. Sure, he'd beat the shit out of Sam Peter but what would that really prove in the grand scheme of things.

My main point was fighters from different eras have too many differing factors to take into account (especially with heavyweights) and most of the times it's pointless trying to compare them.

Trying to think of a average modern heavyweight with a punch under the age of 40 is depressing me

[Quixall]

Well then alternatively, people would say he wasn't good enough to carry Ken Norton's jockstrap due to the lack of decent competition to test him. Sure, he'd beat the shit out of Sam Peter but what would that really prove in the grand scheme of things.

My main point was fighters from different eras have too many differing factors to take into account (especially with heavyweights) and most of the times it's pointless trying to compare them.

Trying to think of a average modern heavyweight with a punch under the age of 40 is depressing me

It's difficult to compare because at the moment we have a heavyweight division in name only and we have something called a "heavyweight champion" but the term is now meaningless and redundant as the majority of heavyweight fighters are simply terrible. Larry Holmes in an interview was being disparaging about Lennox Lewis' career and said "What did he do ??", so god help how he would view today's heavyweights if he felt tht Lewis was not worthy of being called a great champion.

[Quixall]

Ironically, you're both wrong to an extent as premature ref stoppages tend to come when a guy is on his feet, often hasn't been floored and is not showing signs of competitiveness or is a patsy. This wasn't the case with either Holmes clip for a number of reasons. Plus champions tend to get a little bit of leeway in major fights.

What you're both saying, if I am getting this correct, is that if we had two time machines we could send Holmes to this era, where the lack of competition would prevent him being great, despite the fact he'd brutalise the Klits and Haye, and if we in turn sent refs back to the era that is no longer Holmes because Larry is in this era then Larry would not have survived the two knockdowns that didn't actually take place because he wasn't there.

Primer 2: Boxing Bound beckons?

That's roughly it !!

Holmes wouldn't get any recognition if he fought now because he would have no legit challengers at all, the Klitschko's would give a decent fist but wouldn't prevail and anyone else would be beaten up badly, but with the old referee's people like Mormeck and Adamek would perhaps have been allowed to be put down three or four times. If we sent a modern referee bacck to Holmes hay day and especially that Shavers fight, then it's odds on the referee would have clasped hold of Holmes as he staggered into the corner and waved the fight off, hence denying Holmes the opportunity to carry on and gain the respect he did for beating Shavers.

[Lenny]

The home fighter does still get a chance to recover from a knockdown, just look at Khan v Prescott for the first of many examples that spring to mind. I think I've gone a bit off track and it's more of a point specific to the McCall v Lewis fight and it would have been a shame had Holmes been stopped after a heavy knockdown and not been given the chance to show his recovery skills. None of my points were taking into account the current state of the heavyweight division that you seem to have focused on, but that Holmes without his amazing ability to comeback is, whilst still a very good fighter, not as great.

Now different styles of refereeing can add to weight differences, size differences, fight regularity, modern training techniques, ability of competition, personal preferences etc. as to why it's so hard to compare fighters from different eras.

[Syntax Error]

Audley knocking out Sprott was brutal. I thought Sprott was dead.

Good call.

That was a sensational KO & all the more remarkable when it was widely considered that Harrison couldn't KO a greenfly!

To this day, I don't know where Harrison got that punch from.

[Lenny]

The home fighter does still get a chance to recover from a knockdown, just look at Khan v Prescott for the first of many examples that spring to mind. I think I've gone a bit off track and it's more of a point specific to the McCall v Lewis fight and it would have been a shame had Holmes been stopped after a heavy knockdown and not been given the chance to show his recovery skills. None of my points were taking into account the current state of the heavyweight division that you seem to have focused on, but that Holmes without his amazing ability to comeback is, whilst still a very good fighter, not as great.

Now different styles of refereeing can add to weight differences, size differences, fight regularity, modern training techniques, ability of competition, personal preferences etc. as to why it's so hard to compare fighters from different eras.

But he did have that ability, probably through years of work as a sparring partner. I could say that Manny minus his left leg wouldln't be as great but he has that lovely left leg and uses it well.

Holmes would have attained greatness in any era because he was a great fighter.

Strange one, I don't think anyone could take away Pacquiao's left leg during a fight? A referee who is more likely to stop when a fighter beats the count but stumbles (maybe not to the extent that it has been made out today but still more likely than in Holmes era) would have an effect. Holmes was a great fighter but had he been stopped against Shavers or Snipes, he'd be viewed differently. It's a strange thing to discuss as he didn't get stopped so what's the point but we seem to be going around in circles.

I'm glad Holmes wasn't stopped against Shavers like Lewis was against McCall as it gave us the opportunity to see him recover the way he did and thus made him more of an all time great than he would have been had the ref jumped in. Don't quote or bold any of that rubbish I wrote in the first paragraph, just this bit.

[damianhucker1]

Audley knocking out Sprott was brutal. I thought Sprott was dead.

Good call.

That was a sensational KO & all the more remarkable when it was widely considered that Harrison couldn't KO a greenfly!

To this day, I don't know where Harrison got that punch from.

I thought when sprott knocked out Audley prior to that was more of a brutal ko

[Lenny]

Strange maybe but given that we’re time travelling here, creating a Larry Holmes A and B plus taking a ref back with us means we’ve entered the Twilight Zone. As pointed out above, Holmes went down heavy but upon rising gave every indication that he could continue.

Look at the Snipes/Shavers fights this way, Holmes was dropped heavily in fights he was dominant in and was the defending champion, he had also whitewashed Shavers previously and it was reffed by Davey Pearl, an experienced ref who was not one to panic, he later gave Hearns every possible opportunity and no doubt knew that Holmes had spent years as a sparring partner during a tough era so would be able to regroup.

Same for Snipes, it was a good fight but Holmes was on top and the ref was Ortega, who was experienced and not shy of giving someone time, he gave plenty of it to De Jesus previously before calling it in. Once again Larry went down heavy but got up mad, to paraphrase Shavers, and was in a position to continue so the whole argument about ‘What if’ is moot in my opinion.

It would be different if he went down heavily versus Witherspoon, tough fight against a good guy putting in his high water mark performance, or Williams, out-jabbed, clipped and creaking with Roth’s card the more accurate reflection of the fight. But it didn’t happen this way.

As I said, if he was around today then knock off 12 years or so and look at who he’d have beaten en route to titles and as a champion, he’d have been ranked in my opinion.

I’m a huge Lewis fan but he was stopped fairly against McCall because his legs dipped badly, he wasn’t responding and it was early in the bout. Had Garcia not stopped it then there would be no Lennox story as he’d have been beaten up for as long as it lasted because he kept dropping his own left when throwing the right, his balance was bad and McCall was no mug. If it went 4-5 more rounds he would have taken lasting damage, there is no way he would have got to the corner and had his flaws corrected as his then trainer was a muppet.

Lewis also had no history of durability, Holmes did and a good ref knows about his fighters.

As for modern day premature stoppages, are there a lot more or is the fact we’re online all the time pointing them out increase our awareness and therefore make us think they happen all the time. They do happen, they did happen but we tend to be guilty of crying ‘premature, robbery’ or just plain ‘robbery’ the moment we disagree with a call/decision rather than look at why it happened, look at the Helenius-Chisora threads, the cry babies just keep stating their mantra of ‘robbery’ with little or nothing behind it. Fair enough if you disagree with something, this is natural, but not to explore the other side and why you disagree is lazy in my opinion.

People foamed at the mouth recently when Howard Foster stopped Rafal Jackiewicz even though the guy did zero to show he was in or wanted to be in the fight, Foster does keep an eye on fighters and will step in, he clearly was thinking of it in the weekend’s fight for 30 secs or so before the ending. In these situations the onus on the ref is to protect the fighter, it is up to the fighter to show he is still in the fight, Rafal didn’t do this, was stopped and people whinged when it was a fair enough decision.

It makes me sound snobbish etc. but half the bleats of 'robbery' etc. would pass if people understood the rules, scoring regulations etc. Take Mayweather's KO of Ortiz, it was well within the rules but people went bonkers. Anyway, rant over – I apologise.

I agree with mostly all of that. The only thing I would take up is the McCall v Lewis point. The fact that is was early in my mind would mean Lewis was more likely to comeback later on than a fighter who has been hurt past the midway point. Boxing is littered with people who suffer heavy knockdowns in the first 2 rounds that come back to win. To say what might have happened had Lewis continued is pure guesswork. Lewis proved his toughness in the following years against Briggs when only the ropes kept him up. As a Lewis fan I won't be convinced that there is no way he could have recovered

A more recent example at a lower weight domestically that springs to mind is Mutley v Anderson. Nobody would have complained had Anderson been stopped after the heavy knockdown and I'm sure few at the time would have entertained the thought of a comeback (I can't recall exactly how early the knockdown was)

And regarding your points about robberies, I completely agree. The main one that I can't figure out currently is why so many people on here think that Macklin was robbed against Strum.

[Lenny]

No I agree Lewis didn't have the style to outbox McCall and stay out of trouble like he would have later in his career under Steward. Also the Briggs fight whilst not be comparably, was only an example of Lewis coming back after being hurt albeit not to the same extent

It's more the point that an early knockdown should be necessarily a sign of things to come. Was Lewis really more hurt than say Haye against Mormeck? I'm not necessarily saying it was a bad stoppage but Lewis wasn't given the chance at the time to prove his toughness that other fighters have. Holmes was and whilst you can point at his tough sparing, he still needs the ref to be experienced like he was and take that into account.

Okay as I think I keep contradicting myself and we are dealing with twilight zones, how about the Lewis from the Tua fight is the one that is put down by McCall (regardless of whether you think that would have happened), can you see a case for him being aloud to continue?