Bute - an insult to Froch and Ward

[dalcumly]

I notice comments in the boxing press that Froch and Ward are up there with Bute and Kessler as the top men at super middle.

I think this is an insult to Ward and Froch . Both men have fought the best over the last 2 years ,while Bute has fought fringe contenders in his adopted home town . I would place Bute behind Froch, Ward , Kessler ,Dirrell and Abraham . Funnily enough I think he could handle Groves but I would also place him behind De Gale .

Kessler is a bit different - but he did lose to Ward.
C'mon Carl ,son , bring the belts home !!!

[Bricks]

true the hype surrounding bute is amazing considering the problems he had with andrade, and how he has fought the leftovers of the super 6 guys.

Bute looks good and may well be one of the top 3 guys at SM but its hard to tell anything at this stage as he has fought no one compared to the supr 6 guys and he fought a glen johnson for whom age had seemingly finally caught up with him.

[yiddo14]

We all know Bute can only lay claim to being 3rd best in the division. Tonight's fight is to determine who is number 1 and 2.

[MightyWarrior]

Surprised to see boxing monthly have Bute @ #1 in their ratings. Considering he ducked out of the super 6, and has been feasting on a line up of ready mades at home, he should be behind Froch, Ward, Kessler etc.

[LeedsLad]

Dirrell shouldn't be ranked surely?

He's not fought for nearly two years.

[Camcas]

You can't rank Bute at number one at this stage, but he would beat both Ward and Froch

[Camcas]

I notice comments in the boxing press that Froch and Ward are up there with Bute and Kessler as the top men at super middle.

I think this is an insult to Ward and Froch . Both men have fought the best over the last 2 years ,while Bute has fought fringe contenders in his adopted home town . I would place Bute behind Froch, Ward , Kessler ,Dirrell and Abraham . Funnily enough I think he could handle Groves but I would also place him behind De Gale .

Kessler is a bit different - but he did lose to Ward.
C'mon Carl ,son , bring the belts home !!!

You would place Bute behind Degale? What are you on

[Dan Dares]

Dirrell shouldn't be ranked surely?

He's not fought for nearly two years.

He's fighting on 30th Dec. http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

I'd like to see him fight Ward, after Froch beats him, of course.

[Glyn Leach]

Surprised to see boxing monthly have Bute @ #1 in their ratings. Considering he ducked out of the super 6, and has been feasting on a line up of ready mades at home, he should be behind Froch, Ward, Kessler etc.

He was No. 1 before S6 started and hasn't been beaten in the interim. After tonight, finally, we may be able to reconsider his position. May. It isn't guaranteed. Do I particularly want him as BM's No. 1? No. It feels uncomfortable. But that's by the by, it isn't a p4p league, it's not opinion based. Personally I was gutted when the Kessler fight fell through because then we might have had a chance to see how good Bute really is in relation to the S6 fighters - and he is good, whether you like him or not. But I don't think he should be automatically demoted on the grounds of a business decision - not to enter S6.

Bute becomes the bad guy in all this for not having entered a tournament that, when it started, no one was certain would even finish, it seemed so unlikely. It was his call and he certainly hasn't suffered for it because he's continued to earn and become the man the S6 winner has to beat anyway, so that was sharp business on Bute's part. Of course, there will be people who prefer to call him a bottler etc, but he's got a career ahead of him where
Abraham, Taylor, Johnson, Dirrell, Green have not. He's no fool. Only Kessler has been able to survive tournament defeat. So for me, tonight's winner vs the winner of Bute-Kessler is closer to the true 168lb final. And at this stage I'd have him 50-50 vs whoever wins. We might be wrong but we need to be proved wrong in this unusual case.

[dalcumly]

I know we could use Joe Frazier as an example ,when he opted out of the heavyweight elimination tournament and then thrashed the eventual winner , but this is different . I can recall no one in the boxing media who thought that anyone else , including Bute , should have been included in the Super 6 tournament . These were the top 6 at the time ,and they have fought and beaten each other while Bute has taken the easy route . I'm not suggesting he's poor just that he's not as good as the rest . And I repeat , De Gale would stand and counter Bute all night until he forced a stoppage ( and I don't like DeGale but he's hand picked for Bute ).

I've just got 8-1 on Froch stopping Ward inside the distance at Scotbet .

[Finch]

I think it's an insult to Kessler to say this is for 1 and 2 in the division. Afterall, Kessler beat Froch pretty convincingly and only an eye injury prevented him from continuing in the tounry.

[yiddo14]

You should ask why on earth was Bute their number 1 before the super 6 started then Glyn!

Bute is a good fighter, no doubt. He also seems a good guy too. I just can't get the sight of him dead on his feet against Andrade out of my mind when people talk about him beating the likes of Ward and Froch. That and him getting conked by Golovkin in the ams.

I think there is a softness there that the top guys can exploit.

Tonight's fight is to determine 1 and 2. The loser will be 2 unless he gets demolished.

[yiddo14]

I think it's an insult to Kessler to say this is for 1 and 2 in the division. Afterall, Kessler beat Froch pretty convincingly and only an eye injury prevented him from continuing in the tounry.

It wasn't that convincing though was it? I think Kessler pulled out to preserve his career.
I doubt he fancies fighting Ward or Froch again. I had Kessler beating Carl but thought Carl missed an opportunity that night.

[ALI]

I notice comments in the boxing press that Froch and Ward are up there with Bute and Kessler as the top men at super middle.

I think this is an insult to Ward and Froch . Both men have fought the best over the last 2 years ,while Bute has fought fringe contenders in his adopted home town . I would place Bute behind Froch, Ward , Kessler ,Dirrell and Abraham .

You had me up to to here.....

Funnily enough I think he could handle Groves but I would also place him behind De Gale .

Than you lost me altogether

[loaded_gloves]

James DeGale would stand and counter LUCIEN BUTE all night and force a stoppage?

Probably the most embarrassing thing that has been uttered on this forum?

[MightyWarrior]

Surprised to see boxing monthly have Bute @ #1 in their ratings. Considering he ducked out of the super 6, and has been feasting on a line up of ready mades at home, he should be behind Froch, Ward, Kessler etc.

He was No. 1 before S6 started and hasn't been beaten in the interim. After tonight, finally, we may be able to reconsider his position. May. It isn't guaranteed. Do I particularly want him as BM's No. 1? No. It feels uncomfortable. But that's by the by, it isn't a p4p league, it's not opinion based. Personally I was gutted when the Kessler fight fell through because then we might have had a chance to see how good Bute really is in relation to the S6 fighters - and he is good, whether you like him or not. But I don't think he should be automatically demoted on the grounds of a business decision - not to enter S6.

Bute becomes the bad guy in all this for not having entered a tournament that, when it started, no one was certain would even finish, it seemed so unlikely. It was his call and he certainly hasn't suffered for it because he's continued to earn and become the man the S6 winner has to beat anyway, so that was sharp business on Bute's part. Of course, there will be people who prefer to call him a bottler etc, but he's got a career ahead of him where
Abraham, Taylor, Johnson, Dirrell, Green have not. He's no fool. Only Kessler has been able to survive tournament defeat. So for me, tonight's winner vs the winner of Bute-Kessler is closer to the true 168lb final. And at this stage I'd have him 50-50 vs whoever wins. We might be wrong but we need to be proved wrong in this unusual case.

Ok, but the guy Bute beat for his title in the first place, Berrio, must have been at the lower end of the top 10 at SM, and while it's an impressive run he's put together at home, it reminds me a little of the career of Ottke - stays at home and fairly ordinary opponents a brought over for him to beat. I imagine he's been a big favorite to beat all of them ( some I've never heard of ) . Brilliant business move by his management, to stay out if the S6 party, I agree. There's no need from their point of view, he makes big bucks holding his own party at home.
I just wouldn't rank him over Froch, considering the killer line up Carl has ( mostly ) taken care of. Kessler too. Ward might be the best of the lot, unless Carl catches him with a bomb tonight. C'mon Froch !!

[Glyn Leach]

Ok, but the guy Bute beat for his title in the first place, Berrio, must have been at the lower end of the top 10 at SM, and while it's an impressive run he's put together at home, it reminds me a little of the career of Ottke - stays at home and fairly ordinary opponents a brought over for him to beat. I imagine he's been a big favorite to beat all of them ( some I've never heard of ) . Brilliant business move by his management, to stay out if the S6 party, I agree. There's no need from their point of view, he makes big bucks holding his own party at home.
I just wouldn't rank him over Froch, considering the killer line up Carl has ( mostly ) taken care of. Kessler too. Ward might be the best of the lot, unless Carl catches him with a bomb tonight. C'mon Froch !!

It's a fornicator, no doubt. In relation to Froch, Bute's comparative results over Magee and Johnson put him above Carl, even though Carl could make the 'I softened them up for you' claim with some legitimacy. It's so hard to try and be fair to everyone in rating the super middles, particularly when the bulk of them have been fighting it out and one hasn't but is still a legitimate champion. Messy.

[Finch]

I think it's an insult to Kessler to say this is for 1 and 2 in the division. Afterall, Kessler beat Froch pretty convincingly and only an eye injury prevented him from continuing in the tounry.

It wasn't that convincing though was it? I think Kessler pulled out to preserve his career.
I doubt he fancies fighting Ward or Froch again. I had Kessler beating Carl but thought Carl missed an opportunity that night.

How else would you describe two judges cards, 8-4 and 9-3 when Froch was on his bike all night and Kessler was forcing the pace and being the agressor?

For me there's no doubt that Kessler is above Froch in the SMW rankings and I fail to see how anyone can argue otherwise?

If Kessler didn't get injured, Froch would be in the final without bringing a title to the table.

[yiddo14]

Judges score cards don't make too much of an impression on me to be honest. Now way in a million years was that a 9-3 fight for example. Same as the Calzaghe - Kessler fight, that was closer than the judges had it.

I said I thought Kessler won.

As for Froch not bringing a title...if Kessler had not pulled out he would have reached the semi final himself. I think that's one of the reasons he pulled out. Too much risk for what he saw as little reward. Not saying he bottled it etc just that he made a career choice.

[Finch]

Judges score cards don't make too much of an impression on me to be honest. Now way in a million years was that a 9-3 fight for example. Same as the Calzaghe - Kessler fight, that was closer than the judges had it.

I said I thought Kessler won.

As for Froch not bringing a title...if Kessler had not pulled out he would have reached the semi final himself. I think that's one of the reasons he pulled out. Too much risk for what he saw as little reward. Not saying he bottled it etc just that he made a career choice.

I had it about the same as those judges. Froch was largely not in the fight, and for too many rounds was stood there on the back foot not throwing, only with his wild swings when Kessler's work rate and precision was far too much for Froch to contend with.

We'll argue until the cows come home, but no one can deny that Kessler is clearly ahead of Froch in the SMW rankings.

[dalcumly]

Really enjoying the banter about the others but I'm just starting to get the feeling that tonights battle is going to be one of those rare events which has me up on my feet in front of the telly swinging punches with Froch, hoping that I've closed the blinds and that the wife doesn't get up to see her insane hubby lose the plot !!!

[Finn]

Froch and Ward I'd agree with, but with Kessler's lack of activity I don't think it's fair to put Bute behind him. As for Abraham and Dirrell, there is no way for me that he's behind them. To place him behind Degale is a joke surely?

x 2

[Final round]

Bute is a real danger man and a fight with Froch would be at least 50/50 imo.

You got a real feeling during the Johnson fight that Glenn knew what Bute was capable of (which he was due to the sparring)and was happy to hide safe behind his jab and not set himself too much but against Froch he was willing to trade.

[lefthook82]

And I repeat , De Gale would stand and counter Bute all night until he forced a stoppage ( and I don't like DeGale but he's hand picked for Bute ).

[LeedsLad]

There's no justification at all for having Bute as number one.

The fact that he was number one before the tournament is irrelevant.