heavyweights 70's v 90's

[dan28uk]

how bout this ko tournament of heavyweights of the 70's vs 90's

muhammad ali v mike tyson
Joe frazier v evander holyfield
earnie shavers v riddick bowe
george foreman v lennox lewis

thats my pick please tell me who you think wins and goes through or who you think should or shouldnt be in there.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ali TKO12 Tyson

Frazier TKO14 Holyfield

Bowe KO3 Shavers

Foreman KO4 Lewis

Several Heavies in the 70's were Shavers' superior. Quarry, Young, Norton, Lyle, Holmes.

[dempseyfire]

If we're talking the 4 best of the decade, Holmes should be the 4th man of the 70s with Foreman, Ali and Frazier, not Shavers. Also Ken Norton.

[dempseyfire]

Ali TKO12 Tyson

Frazier TKO14 Holyfield

Bowe KO3 Shavers

Foreman KO4 Lewis

Several Heavies in the 70's were Shavers' superior. Quarry, Young, Norton, Lyle, Holmes.

The only guy to ever stop Shavers early was Quarry . . I don't see Bowe doing it. Peak for peak I think Bowe with his porous defense is getting stopped.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Shavers was negligibly better defensively and did literally nothing better than Bowe beyond punching power.

Bowe would cream him, IMO.

[Syntax Error]

how bout this ko tournament of heavyweights of the 70's vs 90's

muhammad ali v mike tyson
Joe frazier v evander holyfield
earnie shavers v riddick bowe
george foreman v lennox lewis

thats my pick please tell me who you think wins and goes through or who you think should or shouldnt be in there.

4 great hypotheticals, especially Frazier -v- Holyfield.

I picking the 12 round distance to be fairer to the 90s boys, because they didn't do 15 rounds.

I'd go for:-

1) Ali TKO 10 Tyson

2) Frazier SD12 Holyfield

3) Bowe TKO9 Shavers

4) Lennox Lewis W12 Foreman (It would have be to Lewis post 1995 though. If it was Lewis pre McCall 1, I think he would have got starched by Foreman).

[dempseyfire]

Shavers was negligibly better defensively and did literally nothing better than Bowe beyond punching power.

Bowe would cream him, IMO.

Shavers was faster, and had the perfect style to chop down big guys with poor movement like Bowe. A guy who got wobbled by Herbie Hide several times is likely not going to survive a prime Shavers.

[Techno89]

I'd go for:

muhammad ali v mike tyson - Ali wins KO in late rounds

Joe frazier v evander holyfield - Frazier wins by TKO

earnie shavers v riddick bowe - Shavers wins by UD

george foreman v lennox lewis - Foreman wins By OK in mid rounds

[Goodnight, Irene]

Shavers was negligibly better defensively and did literally nothing better than Bowe beyond punching power.

Bowe would cream him, IMO.

Shavers was faster, and had the perfect style to chop down big guys with poor movement like Bowe. A guy who got wobbled by Herbie Hide several times is likely not going to survive a prime Shavers.

I just do not rate Shavers that seriously, Demps. His thing was offense, and Bowe was much better in that regard --- better punch variety, better two-fisted power overall, technical skill (before the sloppy debacles with Golota). He certainly punched with more authority than Quarry.

I would also take Bowe's heart and chin both over Shavers'. He can dish out more, endure more, and he has far better tools than Shavers did (the long, thudding jab, expansive inside game, etc).

[jezzamundo]

I agree that Shavers doesn't belong here, I'd probably go with Norton as his career spanned the whole decade. Anyhoo:

Ali KO12 Tyson - Tyson pressures Ali and wins a few rounds early, but Ali's chin stands up to the test. By round 6, Tyson is taking a beating and has mentally lost already. Tyson's strong chin keep him up until the 12th, where he is eventually put down and fails to beat the count.

Frazier TKO15 Holyfield - A very competitive and exciting fight, but ultimately Holyfield (like Ali) doesn't have the power to keep Frazier off him. This is prime for prime and I can't see any version of Holyfield beating Frazier from FOTC. I have Frazier ahead 9 rounds to 5 before laying Holyfield out with a monster left hook. Holyfield beats the count, but is exhausted and beaten, the ref stops the fight.

Bowe KO5 Shavers - Shavers has a good punchers chance here, but Bowe is better in so many ways I have to give him the edge. He controls the fight with his jab and inside game, winning most of the rounds before stopping Shavers with an uppercut.

Foreman KO4 Lewis - I'm almost 50:50 on this one, Lewis could certainly outbox Foreman, who for once may not have had a strength advantage. Ultimately, I feel Foreman's jab wins him this fight, helping him to win half the rounds before he eventually gets to Lewis's chin with his right hand.

[Syntax Error]

I agree that Shavers doesn't belong here, I'd probably go with Norton as his career spanned the whole decade. Anyhoo:

Ali KO12 Tyson - Tyson pressures Ali and wins a few rounds early, but Ali's chin stands up to the test. By round 6, Tyson is taking a beating and has mentally lost already. Tyson's strong chin keep him up until the 12th, where he is eventually put down and fails to beat the count.

Frazier TKO15 Holyfield - A very competitive and exciting fight, but ultimately Holyfield (like Ali) doesn't have the power to keep Frazier off him. This is prime for prime and I can't see any version of Holyfield beating Frazier from FOTC. I have Frazier ahead 9 rounds to 5 before laying Holyfield out with a monster left hook. Holyfield beats the count, but is exhausted and beaten, the ref stops the fight.

Bowe KO5 Shavers - Shavers has a good punchers chance here, but Bowe is better in so many ways I have to give him the edge. He controls the fight with his jab and inside game, winning most of the rounds before stopping Shavers with an uppercut.

Foreman KO4 Lewis - I'm almost 50:50 on this one, Lewis could certainly outbox Foreman, who for once may not have had a strength advantage. Ultimately, I feel Foreman's jab wins him this fight, helping him to win half the rounds before he eventually gets to Lewis's chin with his right hand.

I like your summation of each bout.

I can actually imagine each fight panning out that way.

I think Frazier/Holyfield would be my most anticpated & probably the most exciting, but it is Lewis/Foreman that is the most intruiging for me.

This is one that could really go either way & it would have been interesting to see how Foreman would have coped with someone who was physically stronger & 2 stones (28lbs) heavier.

As I've said previously, it would have to be Lewis from 1995 onwards & that Lewis would have boxed a cautious fight because of the strength & threat from Foreman.

Lewis would have bee prepared & focused & a fully focused Lewis was one of the most dangerous HWs for many a year.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Lewis is following in Holmes' footsteps of being under-valued during his career and over-estimated after it.

Foreman would run him over like a truck. Too slow, too fragile. The right style and SOME of the necessary tools to give Foreman a tough night do not distract me from the two critical points above.

To win, Lewis would almost LITERALLY not get clocked clean once. Aint happening.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ali by wide UD or DQ over Tyson. I don't see Muhammad knocking Mike out.

Holyfield/Frazier is a virtual coin flip. I think Evander threw a tighter, shorter hook that he would beat Joe to the punch with quite a bit. Frazier's body attack would serve him well late. It's a fight that's too violent to think it can go the distance and yet they are both so freaking tough I don't see either getting stopped. Holyfield by SD.

Bowe would butcher Earnie with jabs on the outside and uppercuts in close. TKO5

Foreman is all kinds of wrong for lennox, George KO1.

[Bobby A.]

This is a great thread! Remeber, Ron Stander took out Shavers, so I think Bowe would blast out Earnie. Bowe was the wrong style for him and way too big.Holyfield -Frazier. would be something.How about Quarry-Mercer or Jimmy Young-Lennox Lewis?

[Goodnight, Irene]

This is a great thread! Remeber, Ron Stander took out Shavers, so I think Bowe would blast out Earnie. Bowe was the wrong style for him and way too big.Holyfield -Frazier. would be something.How about Quarry-Mercer or Jimmy Young-Lennox Lewis?

I see Quarry and Lewis winning those pretty handily.

[Bobby A.]

Goodnight, Irene: How do you see Quarry-Mercer playing out? I wonder what would happen if Quarry traded with Ray?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Goodnight, Irene: How do you see Quarry-Mercer playing out? I wonder what would happen if Quarry traded with Ray?

Quarry usually had a dependable chin & he was known for it, but I have always been, & still am, part perplexed, part appalled by how it held up (or didn't, rather) in his rematch with Ali. He made Ali look like he was punching with loaded gloves! With that in mind, Mercer could do more damage.

That said, I've always held the opinion Mercer's power is distinctly over-valued. The shock value of the Morrison KO is largely responsible for that. Mercer just wasn't this huge hitter he is often portrayed as. Look at the number of clean shots he was able to lay on Bert Cooper --- with the same opportunity to strike the same target, Michael Moorer did way more damage to Cooper than Mercer could (I do rate Moorer's HW power as pretty damn decent mind, but not out of this world), so I don't know if trading with Mercer is all that worrisome for Quarry, but you never truly know.

That aside, Quarry should win the fight going away if he's at his best & performs to his strengths. Those are, counter-punching & working off the back of openings, & only forcing the fight selectively. That Quarry would handsomely decision Mercer, IMO. An old, fat Holmes flatly controlled him with a broadly similar fightplan, & that was without Quarry's speed, reflexes, or youthful energy all-round.

[Bobby A.]

My concern for Quarry would be the size disadvantage plus Ray's chin.Now, if Jerry didn't trade, I could see him having a much better shot. Still, I would make a Mercer win no longshot upset.I think Ray was better than Mac Foster. I don't think the Lyle who lost to jerry was peaked yet.

[Goodnight, Irene]

My concern for Quarry would be the size disadvantage plus Ray's chin.Now, if Jerry didn't trade, I could see him having a much better shot. Still, I would make a Mercer win no longshot upset.I think Ray was better than Mac Foster. I don't think the Lyle who lost to jerry was peaked yet.

How do you see Mercer winning? You worry he'll KO Quarry?

I think that's a long-shot (still possible), but I don't know how Mercer could lug around his gut, with that skill-set, & out-point Quarry.

Prime or not, that was a hell of a number Quarry did on Lyle. A hell of a number. I rate Lyle in the top four or five guys of the 70's not to win the title (Norton, Quarry, Young...Lyle perhaps), & Quarry just flat handed him a Boxing lesson.

[Bobby A.]

I'm not really too sure who I would go with but I do think Mercer could stop Quarry in a shootout. I don't think he puts Jerry down for 10 but maybe stop him.What if they did trade, would you still take Jerry?

[The Great John L]

This is a great thread! Remeber, Ron Stander took out Shavers, so I think Bowe would blast out Earnie.

Yeah, that tells us a lot. Let's see, that was Earnie's 14th pro fight and about 6 months into his career. Yep, hard to argue with the relevance of that fight.

Bowe had the greatest strategy ever for fighting hard punchers. He simply didn't fight them.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Go ahead and tell me in how many categories Shavers was Bowe's superior.

This will be a very short list.

[dan28uk]

Ali TKO12 Tyson

Frazier TKO14 Holyfield

Bowe KO3 Shavers

Foreman KO4 Lewis

Several Heavies in the 70's were Shavers' superior. Quarry, Young, Norton, Lyle, Holmes.

i did think about ken norton and larry holmes but i thought holmes was better in the 80's and like shavers punching power that made him exciting.

[Bobby A.]

My comment about Stander taking out Shavers was only to point out that Earnie was taken out by a guy who was far from Bowe's class. Shavers was vulnerable early in his career, mid-career(Quarry,Lye) as well as late (Cobb, Mercado).