Earnie Shavers Vs Cleveland Williams, Who wins?

[KOJOE90]

This would make a great 2/3 round fight.

Both men were simular weights with 'The Big Cat' having a slight height and reach advantage but not much.

These were two muscular fighters with devestating KO power, who could be KO'd themselves.

This is most likely down to who land first, I feel that this would be be Williams, if he used his jab to catch Shavers comming in to stun him then move in with heavy hooks, but it realy could have gone either way?

What do you think fight fans?

[The_Power]

hmm, great matchup.

The prime Cleveland williams was a beast of a fighter, who had a cracking jab and good ko power.

The Prime Shavers was argueably the hardest heavyweight hitter of all times, who gave Holmes and ali tonnes of trouble in there fights, but i would say was more 'glass' chinned than Williams, but had the power advantage.

In the matchup i would go for a shavers ko in 2 rounds, perhaps with KD on each side.

[Marciano Frazier]

I think Williams is very overrated. He only had one win in his entire career over a real serious contender, a TKO over Ernie Terell, who promptly beat Williams in a rematch. Williams built up his record on tomato cans and then lost nearly every fight against a truly top contender he ever had. His punch is somewhat overrated, that being the main thing. Williams' rippling muscular physique and intimidating appearance make people think he was more powerful and all than he really was, IMO. I think Shavers would beat Williams with surprising ease, probably within 3 rounds.

[KOJOE90]

I think Williams is very overrated. He only had one win in his entire career over a real serious contender, a TKO over Ernie Terell, who promptly beat Williams in a rematch. Williams built up his record on tomato cans and then lost nearly every fight against a truly top contender he ever had. His punch is somewhat overrated, that being the main thing. Williams' rippling muscular physique and intimidating appearance make people think he was more powerful and all than he really was, IMO. I think Shavers would beat Williams with surprising ease, probably within 3 rounds.

I take you point, but to be fair on 'The Big Cat' Williams did beat some good fighters such as Miteff, Bethea, Johnson, Danials and Banks and drew with tricky Mechen. Ok they were not world beaters but they were all tough fighters and were no way Bums.

[Marciano Frazier]

I think Williams is very overrated. He only had one win in his entire career over a real serious contender, a TKO over Ernie Terell, who promptly beat Williams in a rematch. Williams built up his record on tomato cans and then lost nearly every fight against a truly top contender he ever had. His punch is somewhat overrated, that being the main thing. Williams' rippling muscular physique and intimidating appearance make people think he was more powerful and all than he really was, IMO. I think Shavers would beat Williams with surprising ease, probably within 3 rounds.

I take you point, but to be fair on 'The Big Cat' Williams did beat some good fighters such as Miteff, Bethea, Johnson, Danials and Banks and drew with tricky Mechen. Ok they were not world beaters but they were all tough fighters and were no way Bums.

Machen WAS a top contender, but again Williams didn't beat him. The only real top contender Williams ever beat was Terell, and Terell beat him in a rematch. He did beat a few fairly good fighters besides Terell, and he did draw with a top fighter in Machen, but clearly he lost virtually every time he stepped up in class, and his vaunted punch failed him about every time as well. He was KO'd early twice by Liston, lost a decision to Terell, knocked out by Bob Satterfield, even dropped twice and decisioned by a fighter named Sylvester Jones who had a record of 6-3. Williams overall was a solid fighter and a decent contender, but overall very overrated IMO, considering just how consistently he lost to all top fighters he faced.
Williams' record against top 10 contenders pre-police-shooting is 1-4-1. He just wasn't as good as Shavers, who had wins over Jimmy Young, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton, etc. Shavers would just be far too much for Williams IMO, and would beat him pretty easily.

[Marciano Frazier]

I think Williams is very overrated. He only had one win in his entire career over a real serious contender, a TKO over Ernie Terell, who promptly beat Williams in a rematch. Williams built up his record on tomato cans and then lost nearly every fight against a truly top contender he ever had. His punch is somewhat overrated, that being the main thing. Williams' rippling muscular physique and intimidating appearance make people think he was more powerful and all than he really was, IMO. I think Shavers would beat Williams with surprising ease, probably within 3 rounds.

I take you point, but to be fair on 'The Big Cat' Williams did beat some good fighters such as Miteff, Bethea, Johnson, Danials and Banks and drew with tricky Mechen. Ok they were not world beaters but they were all tough fighters and were no way Bums.

Machen WAS a top contender, but again Williams didn't beat him. The only real top contender Williams ever beat was Terell, and Terell beat him in a rematch. He did beat a few fairly good fighters besides Terell, and he did draw with a top fighter in Machen, but clearly he lost virtually every time he stepped up in class, and his vaunted punch failed him about every time as well. He was KO'd early twice by Liston, lost a decision to Terell, knocked out by Bob Satterfield, even dropped twice and decisioned by a fighter named Sylvester Jones who had a record of 6-3. Williams overall was a solid fighter and a decent contender, but overall very overrated IMO, considering just how consistently he lost to all top fighters he faced.
Williams' record against top 10 contenders pre-police-shooting is 1-4-1. He just wasn't as good as Shavers, who had wins over Jimmy Young, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton, etc. Shavers would just be far too much for Williams IMO, and would beat him pretty easily.

[6 Pack]

I would pick Shavers. But Shavers could punch and swing for the hills, only to be KOed later in the fight. It really would depend on whether the fight lasted past the first three rounds.

Not that Big Cat had a chin like Tex Cobb, but after watching Cobb TKO Shavers you do loose some respect for the guy. Cobb was nothing special, and Shavers totally punched himself out. His game plan is pretty much written in stone.

Still Shavers starched some good ones, and some that were better than Williams.

[BoxBuzz]

bump....I love this matchup....I'll chime in soon.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

He just wasn't as good as Shavers, who had wins over Jimmy Young, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton

marcianofrasier.......now ur getting ahead of urself.................



jimmy young was horribly green when shavers knocked him out. in the rematch, young beat shavers but was robbed in a horrible decision.



jimmy ellis was shot when shavers had beat him



and norton was 35 and past his prime when shavers annihlated him. norton had been ruined by holmes and he would go 1-1-1 after the shavers fights(drawing with journeyman leroux in a fight leroux deserved to win)

[Collins2000]

He just wasn't as good as Shavers, who had wins over Jimmy Young, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton

marcianofrasier.......now ur getting ahead of urself.................



jimmy young was horribly green when shavers knocked him out. in the rematch, young beat shavers but was robbed in a horrible decision.



jimmy ellis was shot when shavers had beat him



and norton was 35 and past his prime when shavers annihlated him. norton had been ruined by holmes and he would go 1-1-1 after the shavers fights(drawing with journeyman leroux in a fight leroux deserved to win)

Out of curiosity, how did Holmes 'ruin' Norton?

It was a good hard fight, no question about that.

But explain how it ruined Norton.



That's LeDoux by the way. You know I hate sloppy work, Brocky.

[The Great John L]

MarcianoFrazier had it right 2 years ago, Williams is over rated. And Brocky, please refrain from all these "he was ruined by" crap. While it does happen in boxing, top notch fighters are seldom "ruined" by a single fight.

Shavers by quick and brutal KO.

[silkov]

I'd go for Shavers, he had the better chin, but it would be a hell of a fight...

[BoxBuzz]

You really think Shavers has the chin in this one? Seems like a close one in that dept to me. They both had that "iffy" factor.

[silkov]

You really think Shavers has the chin in this one? Seems like a close one in that dept to me. They both had that "iffy" factor.

To me Shavers weakness was stamina rather than his chin... his defeats to Stander and Lyle came really when he was punched out... I think Williams just has the weaker chin by a margin but still wouldnt say he had a glass chin like some seem to think... all in all both Shavers and Williams have the power to hurt eachother... Shavers probably the stronger physically but Williams the better skills and hand speed... if the fought 3 times it would probably be a 2-1 split as a lot would hinge on who was best on the night and both these guys could be erratic... but overall I edge to Shavers...

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

He just wasn't as good as Shavers, who had wins over Jimmy Young, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton

marcianofrasier.......now ur getting ahead of urself.................



jimmy young was horribly green when shavers knocked him out. in the rematch, young beat shavers but was robbed in a horrible decision.



jimmy ellis was shot when shavers had beat him



and norton was 35 and past his prime when shavers annihlated him. norton had been ruined by holmes and he would go 1-1-1 after the shavers fights(drawing with journeyman leroux in a fight leroux deserved to win)

Out of curiosity, how did Holmes 'ruin' Norton?

It was a good hard fight, no question about that.

But explain how it ruined Norton.



That's LeDoux by the way. You know I hate sloppy work, Brocky.

god im embarrased........i cant believe i typed it as leRoux INSTEAD of leDoux.



holmes norton was a war. in wars like that it can take everything out of you. also remember norton was 34 and at the tail end of his prime. norton put everything on the line and when he lost, it took something out of him physically and mentally.


norton even admitted in his book he was never the same after the holmes fight.



another example is look what happened to ezzard charles after that gruelling 15 round war with marciano............the very next year charles was getting knocked out by the likes of john holman and young jack johnson

also holyfield-qawi fight defintley ruined qawi


and even if it didnt ruin norton.......it certainly caused a massive decline!


frazier wasnt ruined after FOTC, but he badly declined and was never the same again.

[silkov]

marcianofrasier.......now ur getting ahead of urself.................



jimmy young was horribly green when shavers knocked him out. in the rematch, young beat shavers but was robbed in a horrible decision.



jimmy ellis was shot when shavers had beat him



and norton was 35 and past his prime when shavers annihlated him. norton had been ruined by holmes and he would go 1-1-1 after the shavers fights(drawing with journeyman leroux in a fight leroux deserved to win)

Out of curiosity, how did Holmes 'ruin' Norton?

It was a good hard fight, no question about that.

But explain how it ruined Norton.



That's LeDoux by the way. You know I hate sloppy work, Brocky.

god im embarrased........i cant believe i typed it as leRoux INSTEAD of leDoux.



holmes norton was a war. in wars like that it can take everything out of you. also remember norton was 34 and at the tail end of his prime. norton put everything on the line and when he lost, it took something out of him physically and mentally.


norton even admitted in his book he was never the same after the holmes fight.



another example is look what happened to ezzard charles after that gruelling 15 round war with marciano............the very next year charles was getting knocked out by the likes of john holman and young jack johnson

I agree with you to a certain extent but also the loss to Shavers who would always have had the style/power to beat him didn't help him much... when Norton fought Ledoux and Cobb his legs were pretty much gone...

[Collins2000]

marcianofrasier.......now ur getting ahead of urself.................



jimmy young was horribly green when shavers knocked him out. in the rematch, young beat shavers but was robbed in a horrible decision.



jimmy ellis was shot when shavers had beat him



and norton was 35 and past his prime when shavers annihlated him. norton had been ruined by holmes and he would go 1-1-1 after the shavers fights(drawing with journeyman leroux in a fight leroux deserved to win)

Out of curiosity, how did Holmes 'ruin' Norton?

It was a good hard fight, no question about that.

But explain how it ruined Norton.



That's LeDoux by the way. You know I hate sloppy work, Brocky.

god im embarrased........i cant believe i typed it as leRoux INSTEAD of leDoux.



holmes norton was a war. in wars like that it can take everything out of you. also remember norton was 34 and at the tail end of his prime. norton put everything on the line and when he lost, it took something out of him physically and mentally.


norton even admitted in his book he was never the same after the holmes fight.



another example is look what happened to ezzard charles after that gruelling 15 round war with marciano............the very next year charles was getting knocked out by the likes of john holman and young jack johnson



and even if it didnt ruin norton.......it certainly caused a massive decline!


frazier wasnt ruined after FOTC, but he badly declined and was never the same again.

No doubt the Holmes fight took something out of Norton but to say it 'ruined' seems a mighty big assumption to me.

How do you know it wasn't the Shavers fight that 'ruined' him? After all, he looked fine taking out Randy Stephens a few months after you claim he was 'ruined'. Wasn't he actually the favourite going into the Shavers fight?

Or maybe just age and general attrition caught up with Norton by the time of the LeDoux fight?

Also, if the Holmes fight 'ruined' Norton, who's to say the Berbick fight didn't 'ruin' Pinklon Thomas? You use Norton's poor form after the Holmes fight as evidence of your theory but doesn't that hold true for Thomas too? He never beat another decent fighter after he lost to Berbick yet you claim he was in his prime going into the Tyson fight.

[silkov]

Out of curiosity, how did Holmes 'ruin' Norton?

It was a good hard fight, no question about that.

But explain how it ruined Norton.



That's LeDoux by the way. You know I hate sloppy work, Brocky.

god im embarrased........i cant believe i typed it as leRoux INSTEAD of leDoux.



holmes norton was a war. in wars like that it can take everything out of you. also remember norton was 34 and at the tail end of his prime. norton put everything on the line and when he lost, it took something out of him physically and mentally.


norton even admitted in his book he was never the same after the holmes fight.



another example is look what happened to ezzard charles after that gruelling 15 round war with marciano............the very next year charles was getting knocked out by the likes of john holman and young jack johnson



and even if it didnt ruin norton.......it certainly caused a massive decline!


frazier wasnt ruined after FOTC, but he badly declined and was never the same again.

No doubt the Holmes fight took something out of Norton but to say it 'ruined' seems a mighty big assumption to me.

How do you know it wasn't the Shavers fight that 'ruined' him? After all, he looked fine taking out Randy Stephens a few months after you claim he was 'ruined'. Wasn't he actually the favourite going into the Shavers fight?

Or maybe just age and general attrition caught up with Norton by the time of the LeDoux fight?

Also, if the Holmes fight 'ruined' Norton, who's to say the Berbick fight didn't 'ruin' Pinklon Thomas? You use Norton's poor form after the Holmes fight as evidence of your theory but doesn't that hold true for Thomas too? He never beat another decent fighter after he lost to Berbick yet you claim he was in his prime going into the Tyson fight.

Thomas was totally shot against Tyson... no legs no reflexes hardly... Norton was still decent enough against Ledoux and Cobb... people knock Ledouxe but he was a pretty decent fighter who would probably be a champion if he was fighting today imo... Nortons decline was probably due to a mixture of hard fights, age and inactivity....

[kick asner]

Scott Ladoux was beaten twice by Duane Bobick one of those time was by a knockout. If he is championship caliber than guys like Bobick must be also. I can understand having the belief that todays heavyweights are lacking in talent but not so much that you could take random journeymen fighters from the past and insert them as current champion. I just think that is rating Ladoux a bit to high.

[silkov]

Scott Ladoux was beaten twice by Duane Bobick one of those time was by a knockout. If he is championship caliber than guys like Bobick must be also. I can understand having the belief that todays heavyweights are lacking in talent but not so much that you could take random journeymen fighters from the past and insert them as current champion. I just think that is rating Ladoux a bit to high.

Look through Scotts record... he gave some good fighters decent fights... Bobick was actually a talented fighter himself with a dodgey chin... but he had a good punch... Ledoux was a fringe contender rather than journeyman and most of todays champs and contenders would be lucky to get anywhere near the top 10 in the 70s or early 80s....

[BoxBuzz]

http://www.antekprizering.com/williamsclevelandsp.jpeg

[BoxBuzz]

http://www.autographedtoyou.com/celebpi ... avers2.jpg

[surf-bat]

This would make a great 2/3 round fight.

Both men were simular weights with 'The Big Cat' having a slight height and reach advantage but not much.

These were two muscular fighters with devestating KO power, who could be KO'd themselves.

This is most likely down to who land first, I feel that this would be be Williams, if he used his jab to catch Shavers comming in to stun him then move in with heavy hooks, but it realy could have gone either way?

What do you think fight fans?

Shavers was KO'd by every big puncher he faced. Williams was much faster. With two shaky-chinned sluggers like this, you go with the one who lands first. In this case, Williams.

[dempseyfire]

Shavers always has a puncher's chance, especially with someone who didn't have a granite chin (such as Williams). However, I agree with Nero and as Williams was the faster starter and quicker fighter (including a much better longer left jab to set up your shots) he would catch Shavers early and take him out by the 3rd round.

[silkov]

This would make a great 2/3 round fight.

Both men were simular weights with 'The Big Cat' having a slight height and reach advantage but not much.

These were two muscular fighters with devestating KO power, who could be KO'd themselves.

This is most likely down to who land first, I feel that this would be be Williams, if he used his jab to catch Shavers comming in to stun him then move in with heavy hooks, but it realy could have gone either way?

What do you think fight fans?

Shavers was KO'd by every big puncher he faced. Williams was much faster. With two shaky-chinned sluggers like this, you go with the one who lands first. In this case, Williams.

Shavers beat Sims, Norton, Tiger Williams who were all big punchers.... he was caught cold by Quarry and run out of gas against Stander and Lyle rather than losing because of a weak chin... I've seen Shavers take too many punches and not go over for him to have a really weak chin...