MUHAMMAD ALI vs. OSCAR BONAVENA

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiJ4tQIpOk0


Show me your score cards (by the round system not on points)!

[HomicideHenry]

MUHAMMAD ALI vs. OSCAR BONAVENA

Round One- Ali (close)
Plenty of dirty tactics by Ali in the round
Yank Durham felt Oscar Bonavena had the better of the exchanges


Round Two- Even
Some dirty tactics by Ali in the round
Yank Durham not impressed with Ali


Round Three- Ali (close)
Some dirty tactics by Ali in the round (pushing)


Round Four- Bonavena (wide)
Both men toe to toe with Ali absorbing most blows

Round Five- Ali (close)
Yank Durham predicts Bonavena will only get stronger as the fight goes

Round Six- Even
Angelo Dundee is puzzled by Ali's lack of skills, speed, etc.

Round Seven- Even
Even Howard Cossell admits the fight is anyone's, the crowd boos Ali
Yank Durham points out Ali is fighting flat footed now

Round Eight- Bonavena
Bonavena aggressive throughout; Ali pushing on Bonavena's head

Round Nine- Bonavena (close)
Most exciting round, both men hit canvas on 'slips', and Bonavena hurt Ali

Round Ten- Ali (close)
Neither man doing much of consequence
Yank Durham says Ali is in trouble

Round Eleven- Even
Bonavena's power punches off set Ali's jabbing

Round Twelve- Even
Neither man doing anything of consequence
Yank Durham says Ali isn't the same fighter he once was

Round Thirteen- Ali
Not much action in the round, but Ali threw more
Durham says he only has Ali ahead by one round

Round Fourteen- Even
Bonavena comes back in later part of the round
Durham says if Bonavena could win the next round, it be very difficult to score

Round Fifteen- ALI WINS VIA KAYO
Up until the stoppage, (2:03) Bonavena was the aggressor w/ Ali leaning on Bonavena
Bonavena got caught and wasn't able to recover, being dropped three times
Up until the fifteenth round, Durham had it virtually even; my scorecard shows it as being
5 rounds Ali, 3 Bonavena, 6 rounds even
One can argue that Bonavena had won some of those even rounds
Because of his aggressiveness and power punches being more meaningful than Ali's infrequent jabs

[HomicideHenry]

One thing that impressed or shocked me most, is how many looping left hooks Bonavena landed in this fight against Ali and how bad he had Ali hurt in the 9th round. It is really no wonder then that Frazier was able to beat Ali with his signature left hook. However, the man that came to my mind on this was Max Baer. How would Baer of faired against THIS version of Ali. I have no doubt that Baer would of upset Ali on this fight had it been him fighting rather than Bonavena.

[misterpunch]

this version of ali - possibly the worst he has ever looked - would lose against any number of good heavy's over the years.

maxie would certainly have got to him. i think jerry quarry would have beaten this ali

[Ambling Alp II]

Homocide Claimsd in the "Ranking the Heavyweights of their eras" thread that Bonavena deserved to a head in the scoring. Than he said that we need to score this fight round by round. Then in this thread he has Ali winning the fight!

[dempseyfire]

6 even rounds? You're worse than Dempsey scoring the Charles-Layne rematch . .

Bonavena didn't win more than 4 rounds of this fight. Ali looked sluggish but he was still ahead at the time of the stoppage.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

One thing that impressed or shocked me most, is how many looping left hooks Bonavena landed in this fight against Ali and how bad he had Ali hurt in the 9th round. It is really no wonder then that Frazier was able to beat Ali with his signature left hook. However, the man that came to my mind on this was Max Baer. How would Baer of faired against THIS version of Ali. I have no doubt that Baer would of upset Ali on this fight had it been him fighting rather than Bonavena.

Because Max baer was such a renowned Left hook artist? I can't tell if you're a troll or a buffoon. Max and Bonavena would have been awesome, Ali would have beaten Baer 10 out of 10.

[hhaehre]

this version of ali - possibly the worst he has ever looked - would lose against any number of good heavy's over the years.

maxie would certainly have got to him. i think jerry quarry would have beaten this ali

Quarry would never have beaten Ali, Muhammad had his number as was very evident in their two fights. Also, neither Quarry nor Baer fought anything like Bonavena. For the record I had Ali well clear in the Bonavena fight despite looking quite bad.

[HomicideHenry]

Homocide Claimsd in the "Ranking the Heavyweights of their eras" thread that Bonavena deserved to a head in the scoring. Than he said that we need to score this fight round by round. Then in this thread he has Ali winning the fight!

If you give the first round to Bonavena (which Yank Durham gave to him) it's 5-4-6 on my unofficial score card; and like I said on the 'even' rounds, one can make the serious argument that aggression and power punches mean more than a cluster of jabs, so Bonavena may of won a few of the rounds I made even. I was being as generous as I could to Ali on this fight, but in reality he didn't do that much in most of the rounds (imho) to warrant anything more than 'even'. So you can't exactly say that I was deceived or made a fool of, because based on reasoning the fight was dead even at least going into the fifteenth round (Yank Durham saw it that way, as did Cosell agree with him). What alot of people fail to notice is a good portion of Ali's punches landed on the arms and gloves of Bonavena, whereas Bonavena's power punch left connected most times right on the button. It was by no means a pretty fight, it was sloppy and entertaining, but that even makes it all the more difficult to score.

this version of ali - possibly the worst he has ever looked - would lose against any number of good heavy's over the years.

maxie would certainly have got to him. i think jerry quarry would have beaten this ali

I happen to agree. It was the left hook that floored Ali in the FOTC against Frazier, it was the left hook that caught Ali off guard with Norton, etc. Bonavena landed it almost at will in this fight and had Ali really hurt in the 9th round. If he was better conditioned, and a better fighter, he would have possibly decked Ali to the canvas. He just didn't have the finishing ability. When I saw those lopping lefts, I thought of Max Baer and thought to myself "Maxie was taller, stronger, faster, more conditioned and slightly better boxer than Bonavena and at times more ferocious than Bonavena. What would of happened had this version of Ali fought the Max Baer who laid waste to Carnera, Schmeling and killed Frankie Campbell?" Ali may of survived, but Baer would have won a decision without doubt in my mind. As for saying Quarry could have beaten Ali, that doesn't make much sense to me considering it was a few months prior to this fight that he busted Quarry up with cuts. Ali would always have Quarry's number, he just didn't have the defense or the cut resistance to last. Bonavena on the other hand, though no world class tactician, was so awkward that it became his chief defense; you just couldn't tell what Bonavena was going to throw next.

6 even rounds? You're worse than Dempsey scoring the Charles-Layne rematch . .

Bonavena didn't win more than 4 rounds of this fight. Ali looked sluggish but he was still ahead at the time of the stoppage.

Like I said before, one can argue power punches and aggression made up the difference against a cluster of infrequent jabs that Ali threw in this fight. One can also make an argument that Bonavena won some of those 'even' rounds that I scored, because he at least made a fight of it. Much like when De La Hoya and Mayweather fought; Compubox shows it wasn't close, but in the eyes of those who watched, it was closer because De La Hoya was the aggressor. I tried to honestly give Ali the benefit of the doubt in the match, but any one of those rounds could have been Bonavena's. This was one of Ali's worst performances; the worst (outside of Holmes) would be Jimmy Young.

[misterpunch]

he may have "busted quarry up with cuts" a few months earlier but the bonavena ali was for some reason a step or three down from the ali who beat quarry. he was so out of sorts i think a tip top quarry and a good many other heavies from different eras would have wasted him.

[klompton]

I thought the fight was close with Bonavena arguably winning. I definately think Bonavena got robbed of a knockdown. Credit to Ali for stopping his man, very impressive, even if he had to use some dirty tactics to do it.

[misterpunch]

i remember the press and pre-fight face offs between ali and ringo. they were great! dunno if i was just too young but i certainly thought at the time that ali was rattled by bonavena's front. all that "chicken, chick chick chick...youre chicken!" both puzzled and, i reckon, got to ali just a little. ringo was a big favourite of mine for ages after that. yea, credit to ali for stopping OB although way off his game, no one else had ever beaten him inside the distance.

[HomicideHenry]

I thought the fight was close with Bonavena arguably winning. I definately think Bonavena got robbed of a knockdown. Credit to Ali for stopping his man, very impressive, even if he had to use some dirty tactics to do it.

I thought, when scoring the fight, he was robbed of a knock down too; but even though I didn't credit the knock down in round nine, I did give the round to Bonavena because he was more aggressive and the fact that later in the round he got Ali hurt. And, yes, Ali did do alot of shoving and pushing down on Bonavena's head and leaning; the latter two you can argue not being so dirty, but in my book it is.

[klompton]

The press in argentina made a lot of that knockdown and that oscar should have got credit. They played it over and over to show it was caused by a punch.

[HomicideHenry]

The press in argentina made a lot of that knockdown and that oscar should have got credit. They played it over and over to show it was caused by a punch.

It was caused by a straight right hand; and Ali did go down. But since Ali got up so quickly, the referee assumed it had to be a slip. People forget Ali's great recooperating powers, when Frazier flattened him, he got up almost immediately. In the FOTC with Frazier, also, Ali was dropped a few times too but he got up so fast they were 'no counts'. It was an incorrectly ruled slip, that fight with Bonavena.

[ThatOne]

Here's the judge's cards:

Bonavena knocked down three times in the 15th, forcing an automatic stoppage. Scoring at the time of the stoppage: 12-2, 10-3-1, 8-5-1 all for Ali.

Were they that far off?


BTW, Ali was the only boxer to stop Ringo in 68 fights. He must have done something right.

I think Ali was the only boxer to stop another really good boxer who most folks have in their top ten.

[klompton]

It was definately impressive that ali got the stoppage but he got away with a lot in that fight including ignoring the neutral corner rule. Those scores are so far off its crazy.

[HomicideHenry]

Here's the judge's cards:

Bonavena knocked down three times in the 15th, forcing an automatic stoppage. Scoring at the time of the stoppage: 12-2, 10-3-1, 8-5-1 all for Ali.

Were they that far off?


BTW, Ali was the only boxer to stop Ringo in 68 fights. He must have done something right.

I think Ali was the only boxer to stop another really good boxer who most folks have in their top ten.

It was as far off as one could get. It is easy to see, even if it went the distance, that Bonavena was going to not get the fair shake he deserved; it was all politics, Ali/Frazier was what the world wanted to see, it would of been the biggest money maker ever in history, they wasn't going to let the Argentinian rock the boat. Had it went fifteen, at best, you could have given Ali a one round edge, a draw would have been acceptable. As for stopping Ringo, conditioning and stamina I think played more into it than anything else; he walked into that shot, and didn't recover because he spent all his energy for the last fourteen rounds being on Ali's ass as much as he could.

[Giancarlo]

Here's the judge's cards:

Bonavena knocked down three times in the 15th, forcing an automatic stoppage. Scoring at the time of the stoppage: 12-2, 10-3-1, 8-5-1 all for Ali.

Were they that far off?


BTW, Ali was the only boxer to stop Ringo in 68 fights. He must have done something right.

I think Ali was the only boxer to stop another really good boxer who most folks have in their top ten.

It was as far off as one could get. It is easy to see, even if it went the distance, that Bonavena was going to not get the fair shake he deserved; it was all politics, Ali/Frazier was what the world wanted to see, it would of been the biggest money maker ever in history, they wasn't going to let the Argentinian rock the boat. Had it went fifteen, at best, you could have given Ali a one round edge, a draw would have been acceptable. As for stopping Ringo, conditioning and stamina I think played more into it than anything else; he walked into that shot, and didn't recover because he spent all his energy for the last fourteen rounds being on Ali's ass as much as he could.

Rufus, it looks like you are as good at scoring a fight as you are at fighting.

[misterpunch]

agree that a win for ringo would have scuppered or at least tarnished a few hunderd thousand dollars off the top of the FOTC. but how far would the-powers-that-be in boxing at that time have gone to preserve the biggest cash cow the boxing world had ever seen? what if ringo had come out for the 15th clearly ahead with a knock down in the 14th to his name?

[HomicideHenry]

Rufus, it looks like you are as good at scoring a fight as you are at fighting

Again, if you don't like what I have to say ignore it and pretend I don't exist.

[Ambling Alp II]

Just stop; you are embarrassing yourself.

[HomicideHenry]

Why cus I'm not an Ali dick rider? I saw the fight the same way Yank Durham did.

[hhaehre]

Why cus I'm not an Ali dick rider? I saw the fight the same way Yank Durham did.

6 even rounds dude!

[elmersalsa]

I think I had Oscar Bonavena ahead at the time of the stoppage or maybe even. I gotta look at my fight scoring card notebook.