Primo Carnera

[HomicideHenry]

I think after reviewing quite a bit of film on the man, more so than I have in recent years, I have to say that he was much better than expected. The rumors, gossip, myths, that surrounded his career and involvement with mobsters I think truly robs Carnera of the hard work, dedication, tremendous courage, toughness, and skills that he had as a fighter. While I cannot say for certain when he went from "attraction" to serious legit fighter, I do know that the myth that he was solely a manufactured heavyweight is just that, a myth. He lost decisions legit to Sharkey and others who were world class guys, and he picked up what he needed to learn on the job and beat Sharkey for the title legit, and defeated Tommy Loughran legit; a man who was just a manufactured fighter (like Billy Fox) would have been kayoed in an instant against a legit contender, and he got up 11 times against Max Baer. That kind of toughness comes from desire and from superb conditioning, as well as true ability to fend off a good portion of the punishment.

The things I notice on film that I am impressed with by Carnera is that for being nearly 6'6" and 270 pounds he was quite nimble on his feet, he had a excellent jab, and unlike the giants of today I don't see him rely on the lean/clinch, he threw uppercuts on the inside and dug to the body. The only weaknesses I see on film of him is that Carnera was at times tenative, and because of his extreme muscularity he lacked the fluidity one would expect a top rated fighter to have; and I do not know if it was because he was punching downward and that shaved some power off, or if it was because of this lack of fluidity, or because he was afraid to hurt someone, but he lacked the kind of power one would assume a man of his size of having; but then again, Jess Willard wasnt bombing people away quickly either, nor did Nicolae Valuev, or for that matter Vladimir Klitschko.

Being a big fan, also, of pathology I wonder whether Carnera really did have acromegaly as many have claimed over the decades. Myself I find it impossible for someone to have lived as long as he did in his time, when such surgeries were still in the experimentation stage. People with gigantism and acromegaly (when untreated) generally die by their 40s, it is very rare for someone to live passed that age. Carnera died of liver and kidney problems due to alcoholism. His facial features, while acromegalic in appearance, was just how he looked imho, he had no pituitary disorder, so I cannot blame his faults on a disorder I don't believe he had.

One advocate of Carnera was (believe it or not) Muhammad Ali, who in an interview with Cosell said that the Italian giant was better than people said, because of his nimble movements on his feet despite his size and his jab was one of the best that he had seen of the past heavyweights. What impressed me most though was his composure against Max Baer; people remember the knockdowns, but forget in that era it was the round system not a points system, and by round ten Carnera had won quite a few rounds with some even.

[HomicideHenry]

And, just how strong was this man Carnera? The more I think on the subject the more my mind is boggled. I do know that at age 17 it is said Carnera (as a circus strongman) was able to clean and jerk 350 pounds over his head. I have seen many pictures and some footage of him performing feats of strength such as pushing a small train down a track (with it fully loaded with passengers), carrying as many as four men/women, lifting a grown man high above his head with one hand, etc. He had to of been incredibly strong to be able to push off Max Baer, Jack Sharkey for several rounds, some of these pushes were almost comical as Sharkey would fly across the ring. It is so astounding though to me that Carnera lacked definitive power in his punches; I think he threw mainly arm punches, not putting weight behind his blows, and due to his muscularity he lacked the speed and fluidity to come up with greater velocity (which often times equals knock outs). His knockout of Sharkey, though, was one instance where you do see him shifting weight while throwing a blow, and Sharkey (in Popeye fashion) flew up and then down to the canvas.

[BoxBuzz]

aye yi yi yi

here we go again....Carnera....better than we thought......

Sharkey practically had to paint a target and put a ribbon on his own jaw and Primo still nearly missed it. But Jack was able to sleep at night, he never had to lie, because yes the punch connected and it did do damage. But it was like a bus ride. The ticket was paid for, and the bus was parked....and waiting (for some time) to be boarded. Which of course then took the lucky passenger (Carnera) on a championship tour.


Romantic revisionism.

[HomicideHenry]

aye yi yi yi

here we go again....Carnera....better than we thought......

Sharkey practically had to paint a target and put a ribbon on his own jaw and Primo still nearly missed it. But Jack was able to sleep at night, he never had to lie, because yes the punch connected and it did do damage. But it was like a bus ride. The ticket was paid for, and the bus was parked....and waiting (for some time) to be boarded. Which of course then took the lucky passenger (Carnera) on a championship tour.


Romantic revisionism.

Here we ago again, Sharkey took a dive against Carnera, when those rumors did not surface until many years after the fact and Sharkey to his dying day said he never took a dive to Carnera. The way I see it, is that Sharkey was tiring out because of Carnera's shoving and body shots. Sharkey wasnt the most reliable and consistant boxer to begin with anyways, and he got caught. He was pushed into the ropes, tried to get his balance and Carnera caught him with the uppercut dropping Sharkey to the canvas. All the ringside reporters said it was a hard and LOUD punch that landed. I dont think Sharkey intentionally put himself in that position. And, again, like I said before, if Carnera was such a built and manufactured guy, winning the title on a dive, he was certainly better than given credit for regardless to actually WIN rounds against Max Baer when he fought him. After all it went 11 rounds, and Carnera was only dropped in the 1st, 2nd, and 11th rounds. He didnt hurt Max Baer any, but still, he did show skills and composure.

[dempseyfire]

Forget it HH . . buzz will never be convinced that Carnera wasn't a bum and Sharkey didn't throw the fight even when shown evidence to the contrary.

I've been touting the merits of Carnera for years on this board. Not an ATG but a very good and formidable fighter. Incredible stamina for a man his size, good fundamentals, and good athleticism for a 6'5, 265 lb heap of muscle. Still one of the most incredible physiques you'll ever see on a fighter, and that was 70-80 years ago.
Yes his management fixed many of his very early fights but by late 1930 he was fighting in legitimate matchups. Beat fair and square Jack Gross, Paulino Uzcudun, Kingfish Livinsky, Art Lasky, Ernie Schaaff (although he was helped in that match-up by Ernie's condition coming in), and Tommy Loughran. Plus he showed dominance vs the other 'super' heavyweights of his era, who were not world beaters but also not bad fighters, such as Victorio Campolo, Jose Santa, and Ray Impellietiere (the latter reminds me a lot of Tyson Fury on film).
As a fighter I'd put him below Lewis, the Klitschkos and Bowe but above all of the other 'super heavyweights' such as McCline, Smith, Tucker, Whitaker, Valuev or any of the other guys fighting today. In terms of resume his is the best of the super heavyweights save Lewis. He certainly beat far better fighters than the Klitschkos have . . .

[HomicideHenry]

Forget it HH . . buzz will never be convinced that Carnera wasn't a bum and Sharkey didn't throw the fight even when shown evidence to the contrary.

I've been touting the merits of Carnera for years on this board. Not an ATG but a very good and formidable fighter. Incredible stamina for a man his size, good fundamentals, and good athleticism for a 6'5, 265 lb heap of muscle. Still one of the most incredible physiques you'll ever see on a fighter, and that was 70-80 years ago.
Yes his management fixed many of his very early fights but by late 1930 he was fighting in legitimate matchups. Beat fair and square Jack Gross, Paulino Uzcudun, Kingfish Livinsky, Art Lasky, Ernie Schaaff (although he was helped in that match-up by Ernie's condition coming in), and Tommy Loughran. Plus he showed dominance vs the other 'super' heavyweights of his era, who were not world beaters but also not bad fighters, such as Victorio Campolo, Jose Santa, and Ray Impellietiere (the latter reminds me a lot of Tyson Fury on film).
As a fighter I'd put him below Lewis, the Klitschkos and Bowe but above all of the other 'super heavyweights' such as McCline, Smith, Tucker, Whitaker, Valuev or any of the other guys fighting today. In terms of resume his is the best of the super heavyweights save Lewis. He certainly beat far better fighters than the Klitschkos have . . .

To me, like I noted before, a completely manufactured fighter built on dives wouldnt of had the success that he did in legitimate fights (even in his losses). There would have been no coping skills, there would have been no answer to the chaos and violence that a top ranked fighter could bring; yet Carnera had composure and saavy against those guys even in brutal knockout losses. A manufactured fighter wouldn't of been able to steal rounds away from Max Baer, or defeated Loughran in a shut out unaminous decision, or kayoed guys like Santa and Impellietiere. Primo's problem is that when the fakery stopped, he was kept at a grade C level for too long. Mind you he only was tested six times before getting a title shot and he had nearly 70 professional fights. And again, his extreme muscularity, took away the fluid motion and velocity from his punches, it robbed him of that extra snap necessary to of been a real force in boxing. He threw too many arm punches, and the few times you see him put weight behind his blows (like that uppercut that kayoed Sharkey) was amazingly powerful. That being said, the man was amazingly flexible in training and nimble on his feet. I dont exactly believe he had a weak chin, I put him in same class (in that respect) as Patterson who was dropped multiple times in his career and got back up to win. Had Carnera been a completely manufactured guy he would of ended up like Billy Fox, who was kayoed in one round by Lesnevich for the title and subsequently kayoed in matches that followed. There would have been no answer and resolve to the violence. Carnera would have plumb freaked out in such a situation, but he didnt. Look at the TREMENDOUS body shots he absorbed and laughed off from Max Baer; hitting Carnera's amazing abdominals and chest, may as well of been likened to trying to chop a redwood tree down with an axe. And one thing we do know about boxing, is that size means nothing, so you cant say size alone made Carnera successful in legit boxing matches, it was everything else that he picked up. I wouldnt put him in same class as Lewis, Bowe and the Klitschko's either, but that man was FAR AND AWAY better than Valuev.

[Brutu]

I think after reviewing quite a bit of film on the man, more so than I have in recent years, I have to say that he was much better than expected. The rumors, gossip, myths, that surrounded his career and involvement with mobsters I think truly robs Carnera of the hard work, dedication, tremendous courage, toughness, and skills that he had as a fighter. While I cannot say for certain when he went from "attraction" to serious legit fighter, I do know that the myth that he was solely a manufactured heavyweight is just that, a myth. He lost decisions legit to Sharkey and others who were world class guys, and he picked up what he needed to learn on the job and beat Sharkey for the title legit, and defeated Tommy Loughran legit; a man who was just a manufactured fighter (like Billy Fox) would have been kayoed in an instant against a legit contender, and he got up 11 times against Max Baer. That kind of toughness comes from desire and from superb conditioning, as well as true ability to fend off a good portion of the punishment.

The things I notice on film that I am impressed with by Carnera is that for being nearly 6'6" and 270 pounds he was quite nimble on his feet, he had a excellent jab, and unlike the giants of today I don't see him rely on the lean/clinch, he threw uppercuts on the inside and dug to the body. The only weaknesses I see on film of him is that Carnera was at times tenative, and because of his extreme muscularity he lacked the fluidity one would expect a top rated fighter to have; and I do not know if it was because he was punching downward and that shaved some power off, or if it was because of this lack of fluidity, or because he was afraid to hurt someone, but he lacked the kind of power one would assume a man of his size of having; but then again, Jess Willard wasnt bombing people away quickly either, nor did Nicolae Valuev, or for that matter Vladimir Klitschko.

Being a big fan, also, of pathology I wonder whether Carnera really did have acromegaly as many have claimed over the decades. Myself I find it impossible for someone to have lived as long as he did in his time, when such surgeries were still in the experimentation stage. People with gigantism and acromegaly (when untreated) generally die by their 40s, it is very rare for someone to live passed that age. Carnera died of liver and kidney problems due to alcoholism. His facial features, while acromegalic in appearance, was just how he looked imho, he had no pituitary disorder, so I cannot blame his faults on a disorder I don't believe he had.

One advocate of Carnera was (believe it or not) Muhammad Ali, who in an interview with Cosell said that the Italian giant was better than people said, because of his nimble movements on his feet despite his size and his jab was one of the best that he had seen of the past heavyweights. What impressed me most though was his composure against Max Baer; people remember the knockdowns, but forget in that era it was the round system not a points system, and by round ten Carnera had won quite a few rounds with some even.

People forget that in the first knockdown of Carnera by Max Baer.
Carnera chipped a bone in his ankle and damaged some ligaments in his leg.
He spent a day in the hospital and had to wear a cast on it aferwards.
Hey HH,have you seen a website called
http://thetallestman.com
There is a discussion forum in it.I was going to post a thread on Jack O'Halloran
who did have acromegaly,but never realized it until he was well into his pro boxing career

[HomicideHenry]

I do visit the tallestman.com website now and then, as a matter of fact I am actually working on a project that is an encylopedia of gigantism cases from A-Z. Carnera did get injured rather badly in the Baer fight from early knockdowns (as you mentioned). I dont know if that would have made a difference in the outcome of a knockout/stoppage win for Baer, but I am sure it hampered Carnera's movements quite a bit. He was all heart and courage. Again, however, I dont believe he had acromegaly. Had he had the disorder he would have eventually died due to the disease, like Rondo Hatton the famous actor did and professional wrestlers like Maurice Tillet in early life. Carnera essentially wasted away down to skin and bones from liver and kidney disease from alcoholism. However, if you notice as he got older he didn't get denser/broader like people with the disease get. That in part is a reason why I do not believe he had the disease also.

[Ambling Alp II]

Carnera was a good fighter; obviously he wasn't a great fighter. He may have been lucky vs Sharkey, but you could say the same about Mike Weaver or Hasim Rahman. He did win the heavyweight championship of the world (as opposed to some WBS title) and that has to count for something.

Some of his early fights were not on the level, though he may have been unaware of it. However, he may have won those fights had they been legit anyway. His opponents were taking a dive to be under the over-under betting line of how many rounds a fight would go.

He was very easy to hit which was his biggest weakness. However, he was not the incompetent fighter he is sometimes made out to be.
Watch the Louis-Carnera fight on youtube (one round is missing) Louis is winning the rounds, but Carnera is making it a contest. there were many iother fighters that didn't do as well against Louis. Several of his other fights are on youtube as well. He usually doesn't look great or terrible; he usually looks decent.

He fought a lot of fights (over 100) and took on tomato cans to journeyman to contenders to champions. He occasionally lost to less than great fighter, but as mentioned by others had some decent wins. It's fair to put him in the lower echelon of champions group (with Hart, Willard, Braddock etc.) However, it's not fair to label him as some sort of bum; he certainly was not.

[Jaclem]

the carnera fight was louis' debut in new york, carnera tried to intimidate louis early by muscling him in a clinch. louis just picked him up off his feet and set him down again. lous wasn't impressed by him but said he had a good left jab. films show he moved around better than he is given credit for.

sharkey had toduck into carnera's uppercut to get hit with the "knockout" punch.

primo was a very very brave fighter who stayed in there and took a lot of punishment and kept getting up.

[HomicideHenry]

the carnera fight was louis' debut in new york, carnera tried to intimidate louis early by muscling him in a clinch. louis just picked him up off his feet and set him down again. lous wasn't impressed by him but said he had a good left jab. films show he moved around better than he is given credit for.

sharkey had toduck into carnera's uppercut to get hit with the "knockout" punch.
primo was a very very brave fighter who stayed in there and took a lot of punishment and kept getting up.

Again, another allusion that Carnera won because Sharkey took a dive. Re-watch the film, Carnera pushes/punches Sharkey into the ropes, Sharkey gets off balance trying to grab the ropes to straighten himself up and then Carnera lands the uppercut.

[BoxBuzz]

HH......there was no dive...on a physical basis.

I agree, Jaclem agrees.

But look at the words we actually wrote. I've never called Sharkey a liar.

I HAVE said that Carnera was not all some here are now attempting to portray him as.

If you want to say..."he was better than some give him credit for". Ok....I'll go along.

I actually believe he COULD crush a grape. He could crush a whole bunch of grapes. Maybe even bunches of bunches. I

bet he could have even run a winery.

But rate him as a "good" HW champion?

Well, that's where I really suggest you get off the bus, and you might as well, cause that bus aint headin' nowhere but the breakdown lane.

[HomicideHenry]

HH......there was no dive...on a physical basis.

I agree, Jaclem agrees.

But look at the words we actually wrote. I've never called Sharkey a liar.

I HAVE said that Carnera was not all some here are now attempting to portray him as.

If you want to say..."he was better than some give him credit for". Ok....I'll go along.

I actually believe he COULD crush a grape. He could crush a whole bunch of grapes. Maybe even bunches of bunches. I

bet he could have even run a winery.

But rate him as a "good" HW champion?

Well, that's where I really suggest you get off the bus, and you might as well, cause that bus aint headin' nowhere but the breakdown lane.

I would rate him higher than alot of alphabet champions in retrospect of their careers, along with some linear champions. I would say he's in the middle road of the heavyweight champions; he wasn't bad, nor was he great either. He was good and decent, and that's a fair assumption.

[Ambling Alp II]

HH......there was no dive...on a physical basis.

I agree, Jaclem agrees.

But look at the words we actually wrote. I've never called Sharkey a liar.

I HAVE said that Carnera was not all some here are now attempting to portray him as.

If you want to say..."he was better than some give him credit for". Ok....I'll go along.

I actually believe he COULD crush a grape. He could crush a whole bunch of grapes. Maybe even bunches of bunches. I

bet he could have even run a winery.

But rate him as a "good" HW champion?

Well, that's where I really suggest you get off the bus, and you might as well, cause that bus aint headin' nowhere but the breakdown lane.

I agree to call him a good heavyweight champion is going to far. He has to be near the bottom of champions. However, I think you and I don't consider all of the WBS title holders to be champions. Some people do. You certainly could argue that Carnera was better than some of these titleholders from the 1980s to now. But as far as the "real" champions, he has to be near the bottom.