prime MIKE TYSON V prime J.LOUIS

$eif · Post by **$eif** » 27 Mar 2004, 15:31

Who do u think is going to win, and why pleas!
And is Mike going to fight this year

?

Rocky Balboa · Post by **Rocky Balboa** » 27 Mar 2004, 17:57

I am pleased someone has matched a prime Tyson and Louis together, as I feel the prime Tyson was so very similiar to a prime Louis. In the past, people said a prime Tyson was nearer to likes of Rocky Marciano, Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey and Sonny Liston. Well, in my opinion, I see more similarities between Tyson and Louis.

Both had very good jabs in their heyday, and seemed to set everything up with this punch, and they KNEW how vital it was, never disregarded it at all when in their prime.

Both threw devestating combinations, with tremendous power in both hands, although I would say Tyson's left was better than Joe's.

Both fighters were extremely accurate punchers and had very, very good handspeed. With regards to footdspeed, I would say Mike had the edge. Joe Louis was the master at blocking or parrying his opponents punches. When watching fights of Louis, he would little things i.e. little movements to the left, right, a step back and then make his opponent pay the ultimate price. He may not have been a slick mover, but he was an intelligent mover in the ring.

Mike Tyson had great upper body movement, especially his head, never being a stationery target for anyone. Along with his fast footspeed, this allowed Iron Mike to close down the gap between him and his opponents, without getting hit and hitting them.

The one last thing I can think of, is, CHIN. I feel Mike had a better chin than Joe did - Tyson has proved he can take punishment like the best of them.

What an intriguing match-up this would have been. It would have been fascianting, to say the least. I feel this would be a bout of back-and-forth action, with both coming to give their all and win.

I feel Tyson, weighing in at 218lbs, would be stronger than Louis, weighing in at 198lbs. However, Mike would not underestimate Joe just because he is bigger, and would come prepared for WAR, as would Louis.

Right from the off, both are in the centre of the Ring, with Tyson extremely fast paced, maybe even looking for the 1st round TKO. Louis is no mug, and gives as good as he gets, with short, crisp punches and Tyson realises that he may have to go more than 1 round to win this one!

All in all, it proves to be a great fight. I predict a Tyson victory, soometime in the 7th round, with Tyson ripping body and head shots to Louis, while Joe is on the ropes. Mike lands a right to the body, and comes straight up the middle with a right uppercut, right on the chin, followed by a left hook, just as the referee is about to step in and stop the bout.

Both fighters would have had tremendous respect for each other, no doubt!

$eif · Post by **$eif** » 27 Mar 2004, 18:28

That is a superb post! Good 1 Rocky!

The_Power · Post by **The_Power** » 27 Mar 2004, 18:31

what a match-up this is.

Both do have many similarities, Speed, power accuracy, and both where awesome fighting machines in there day.

However i do feel that the style would have a unique clash here, and although Louis is certainly higher on my all time list, i feel he would loss to the 1988 version of iron mike. Over 12 rounds i would pick a Tyson UD, over 15 then maybe even a late tyson KO.

$eif · Post by **$eif** » 27 Mar 2004, 18:40

I pick Joe MD :P!

surefire72 · Post by **surefire72** » 27 Mar 2004, 22:56

Great match-up
Tyson vs one of the greatest ever Louis.
Its a tough call because Tyson has explosive power & Joe is slow & a notoriuos slow starter while Tyson is a one round king.
If Joe gets past the first 4 rounds its up for grabs, but thats a big if.
Tyson would eat joe's murderious jabs & it will take a toll on the smaller short fighter.
Still It seems that a prime Tyson would end things early before he has to go through this trial & tribulations.
Tyson by 2 round ko only because in his prime he was fast depth & hard to hit while joe was always able to be hit cleanly.Tyson to explosive in the first 2 rounds for joe to get out.

from the time Tyson started to lose steam around the Douglas fight it would be all joe no doubt.
Tyson would have to be sharp like in the beginning & only the beginning.
But we are talking "86" tyson & Joe just after beating Braddock who by the way dropped Joe breifly in the fight.
Sorry Joe but Tyson would get you early , IF he didnt it would be the brown bomber in 8, but like I said I dont see Tyson letting it get to that.

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 28 Mar 2004, 01:19

Maybe there is a reason wy Joe Louis is rated as 2nd best fighter ever by the ring magazine. The only fight above him SRR and Ali is one behind him and Tyson is like 54 or something like that.

Rocky Balboa · Post by **Rocky Balboa** » 28 Mar 2004, 15:07

At the end of the day, prime Louis vs prime Tyson would have a match to saviour. It would have been a real hard, solid and competetive match-up.

With regards to Joe Louis being ranked the third greatest fighter of all time by Ring magazine, well, I would not pay particular attention to that, and I do not mean this in a disrespectful way to the lat Joe Louis or Ring magazine.

When compiling a list of the pund-4-pound greats, the firts two fighters on every list, in my opinion, should be, Sugar Ray Robinson and Henry Armstrong. After those two, then there is case for argument to put Ali, Louis or whichever other great you feel should be there.

surefire72 · Post by **surefire72** » 28 Mar 2004, 17:02

Its the slow start that makes me think Tyson would blast him out early.
If Joe could get out of the first 4 rounds he wins no doubt in my mind.
But Tyson of 86 noway he was on in those years Not like todays version, This Tyson had a real reason to be scared of. He earned it then.
I dont go by all these list like bible, they are just giving there say on it like my self.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 29 Mar 2004, 18:51

Any discussion of Tyson in a mythical match-up which fails to discuss the mental and psychological aspects of the game is useless.

It's like comparing Tyson and Frazier and saying Tyson is bigger and stronger, without mentioning that Frazier was relentless and had a will of iron, completely unlike Tyson, who apparently took the nickname "Iron Mike" in hopes that if he called himself that, he'd actually become that.

Against the all-time greats, Mike's fragile psyche must be the #1 quality that you consider - Ali would've gotten into his mind so bad before the fight that once they got into the ring it would've been over before it started. Foreman would've had Mike peeing his pants - hell, it's been documented that even during his middle-aged comeback, Foreman scared Mike so badly that Mike absolutely wanted no piece of "that animal."

Louis wouldn't have been intimidated either - and throughout his career when Mike didn't go into a fight against a quality guy with the prefight intimidation factor working for him, he generally struggled or got beaten. You think the Holyfield that beat Mike twice was any better than Louis?

southpaw_21 · Post by **southpaw_21** » 30 Mar 2004, 04:29

If you the the best Tyson we've seen and the best Louis we've seen, I'd say Tyson by quickie KO in a short but exciting one. I'm afraid Louis a a bit too chinny for Tyson.

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 30 Mar 2004, 06:22

wow blind we all are!!!!!

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 30 Mar 2004, 06:25

Louis by late stoppage or Tyson by very early KO.

I would have to favour Louis though. His jab would have given Tyson a lot of problems and Louis was a better inside fighter too.

surefire72 · Post by **surefire72** » 31 Mar 2004, 01:03

Look at the factors I used to get my pick
its not based on mentality or legend at all. Its the young hungry Tyson,
vs. the great but slow Louis.
This is fact Joe was a very slow starter, & Tyson is a 1st rd. ko king it would have been tough for Joe to get out of the first 3 rounds.
I said too that if he got past 3-4 rounds the fight was his .
theres no mentel edge hear for neither fighter.
Back then Tyson was confident in his skills because he did his homework & he studied the game for tips & trained like a champion.
When you mentioned the fear factor about George & Frazier & the Tyson that fought Holyfield you jumped past the time zone & refered to the Tyson of now this Tyson wouldnt win against Louis.
But Louis wont win against Tyson the night he lost to Marciano either, vs. the 86 version.
The post was a prime Tyson & Louis. Tyson would win. by early ko.

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 31 Mar 2004, 07:17

Joe was a slow starter but he was not slow in any other part of his figthing style his jab was lighting, he would be slamming that strait into tysons facing pissing him off then finishing him off late. But yeah i dont really think that i have seen Tyson when he was young and hungry i think he could catch him early in the 1st round even if it went much more than 3 i would place $1000 on Louis! :)

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 31 Mar 2004, 12:03

surefire72 wrote:When you mentioned the fear factor about George & Frazier & the Tyson that fought Holyfield you jumped past the time zone & refered to the Tyson of now this Tyson wouldnt win against Louis.
But Louis wont win against Tyson the night he lost to Marciano either, vs. the 86 version.
The post was a prime Tyson & Louis. Tyson would win. by early ko.

What I'm saying is that even if the prime Tyson had all the *physical* skills to be a great champion, he NEVER had the mental toughness needed to hang in ring wars with the all-time greats. He was always a frontrunner with a bully's mentality. If you were intimidated, he'd often won the fight before it even started. Sure, he legitimately became the youngest-ever HW champ, but look at the guys he fought to do it: Trevor Berbick, the way-past-his-prime-and-coming-off-a-two-year-layoff Larry Holmes and blown-up light-heavy (who was totally psyched out before the fight even started, to boot) Mike Spinks. Good wins, but far, far from great.

So Tyson never faced an ATG heavy in his prime - even Holyfield way back then was considered all used up after his grueling wars with Bowe. But we do know that on all 3 occasions that Mike faced an ATG, period, he lost. Badly. And to guys who were no closer to their primes than he was. Based on that, I say it wouldn't have mattered when in his career Tyson faced a true great - he was always missing those important mental traits that so often separate the true champions from the guys merely blessed with great physical assets.

And unlike the "Prime Tyson beats {insert name of ATG HW here}" claims, which are pure speculation based on Tyson dominating a legion of second-raters, my claim has some appreciable factual evidence to back it up:

1) The one-sided loss to Douglas, back when Tyson *was* in his prime;

2) The complete befuddlement at the hands of and mental meltdown against Holyfield in 2 fights;

3) The beatdown by the similarly-old Lewis;

4) The best 3 wins of his career (and these were all in his prime) being the aforementioned trio of Berbick, Grampa Holmes and Spinks.

$eif · Post by **$eif** » 31 Mar 2004, 16:15

surefire72 wrote:Look at the factors I used to get my pick
its not based on mentality or legend at all. Its the young hungry Tyson,
vs. the great but slow Louis.
This is fact Joe was a very slow starter, & Tyson is a 1st rd. ko king it would have been tough for Joe to get out of the first 3 rounds.
I said too that if he got past 3-4 rounds the fight was his .
theres no mentel edge hear for neither fighter.
Back then Tyson was confident in his skills because he did his homework & he studied the game for tips & trained like a champion.
When you mentioned the fear factor about George & Frazier & the Tyson that fought Holyfield you jumped past the time zone & refered to the Tyson of now this Tyson wouldnt win against Louis.
But Louis wont win against Tyson the night he lost to Marciano either, vs. the 86 version.
The post was a prime Tyson & Louis. Tyson would win. by early ko.

Sorry surefire72…. But I don’t agree on that “Marciano V Louis” that was one of the most insensible thing in boxing history. I am talking about sending a 40yr man to fight a for a “whit man” Tax

.

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 01 Apr 2004, 09:11

$eif wrote:
surefire72 wrote:Look at the factors I used to get my pick
its not based on mentality or legend at all. Its the young hungry Tyson,
vs. the great but slow Louis.
This is fact Joe was a very slow starter, & Tyson is a 1st rd. ko king it would have been tough for Joe to get out of the first 3 rounds.
I said too that if he got past 3-4 rounds the fight was his .
theres no mentel edge hear for neither fighter.
Back then Tyson was confident in his skills because he did his homework & he studied the game for tips & trained like a champion.
When you mentioned the fear factor about George & Frazier & the Tyson that fought Holyfield you jumped past the time zone & refered to the Tyson of now this Tyson wouldnt win against Louis.
But Louis wont win against Tyson the night he lost to Marciano either, vs. the 86 version.
The post was a prime Tyson & Louis. Tyson would win. by early ko.
Sorry surefire72…. But I don’t agree on that “Marciano V Louis” that was one of the most insensible thing in boxing history. I am talking about sending a 40yr man to fight a for a “whit man” Tax .

What the hell do you mean by this ? The white tax i dont get it.

surefire72 · Post by **surefire72** » 01 Apr 2004, 21:21

I hear what your saying ,& I agree with you on the mental thing, to a cetain extent.
Tyson in his prime in 86 was a confident fighter who was blessed with great power & speed that at that point wasnt equal to nobody. Its not Tysons fault the era he came in was weak in talent . He did the next best thing & cleaned up what was there & won all the belts, & to this day is the only fighter who ko'ed Holmes & holmes is fightin past 50 so that count' s for his power.
Spinks was a great fighter as well he might have been small but he was the same size as Louis look at the tape, he blew Spinks out like a great champion does.
Tyson at this time didnt have to be tested mentally for along time & the post refers before he had to be expose on the frality of his mind.
I also say if Louis got past 4 the fight is his . But I think Tyson would stop that from happening.The fast punching power is to much for the sloww Louis, Billy conn was aLT. heavy & rocked joe to his heels, & almost pulled it out Louis had to grab a ko punch from out of nowhere, compare it to Tyson & spinks .
In Louis first defense He won a disputed split decison over another lt. heavyweight Tommy Farr.
So this debates on what Tyson would do to a smaller Louis, who had a shaky chin.

$eif · Post by **$eif** » 02 Apr 2004, 17:11

{amateur} wrote:
$eif wrote:
surefire72 wrote:Look at the factors I used to get my pick
its not based on mentality or legend at all. Its the young hungry Tyson,
vs. the great but slow Louis.
This is fact Joe was a very slow starter, & Tyson is a 1st rd. ko king it would have been tough for Joe to get out of the first 3 rounds.
I said too that if he got past 3-4 rounds the fight was his .
theres no mentel edge hear for neither fighter.
Back then Tyson was confident in his skills because he did his homework & he studied the game for tips & trained like a champion.
When you mentioned the fear factor about George & Frazier & the Tyson that fought Holyfield you jumped past the time zone & refered to the Tyson of now this Tyson wouldnt win against Louis.
But Louis wont win against Tyson the night he lost to Marciano either, vs. the 86 version.
The post was a prime Tyson & Louis. Tyson would win. by early ko.
Sorry surefire72…. But I don’t agree on that “Marciano V Louis” that was one of the most insensible thing in boxing history. I am talking about sending a 40yr man to fight a for a “whit man” Tax .

What the hell do you mean by this ? The white tax i dont get it.

From 1800-1943 boxers had to pay tax. So if you retire like if your53yr and the government wants you to pay, u had Togo back and fight. And it is called “the whit man tax” Because the Black fighter’s ware the only
fighter’s who ware thrown back(at that ege)in the ring. e.g. J.Johnson J.Louis-………

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 03 Apr 2004, 11:44

I think Louis wins this one handily....
Its a match between a very great fighter against a very good fighter...

A couple of posters have knocked Louis for having a shaky chin...however, the numbers say otherwise ..but he had more professional fights than Tyson and was knocked out fewer times...Louis might have suffered a few flash knockdowns but usually he got up to win..

Louis also scored a number of spectacular first round knockouts ...ask Max Schmeling if he thinks Louis was a slow starter...

surefire72 · Post by **surefire72** » 05 Apr 2004, 19:06

I dont know what you are talking ABOUT Louis & the white man tax. Thats all new to me . Im talking aboutTyson jumping on Louis early. in his prime Tyson was a great fighter theres no way to say he wasnt . Come on he had the world at his feet until Douglas knocked the mouth piece outta his mouth.
I rank Joe way up there but we are talking prime vs, prime. & it would have been a great fight & I wish there was some way to really see it.
But I looked at several 80s fights of Tyson & Louis early fights with Max the first time Baer, & others (highlights)..Which really makes me think im right on this one .Look at this fight of joe getting ko'ed by a less skilled Max. Tyson would eat Max up & he would ko a young Louis. too.
Louis to me was a better fighter later in his career than in the beginning , & Tyson was a better fighter earlier in his career than later . This is why I pick Tyson early ko.
We cant go by accomplishments late in there careers this is their primes & Tyson has the edge here!

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 05 Apr 2004, 23:47

I don't think theres much of a comparison..
Louis was far more accomplished than Tyson throughout his career an awesome 26-1 in heavyweight championship fights compared to Tyson's rather pedestrian 3-2 record in heavyweight championship fights ...
Louis was champ for almost 12 years compared to Tysons 19 months ..

surefire72 · Post by **surefire72** » 07 Apr 2004, 15:43

zurdo wrote:I don't think theres much of a comparison..
Louis was far more accomplished than Tyson throughout his career an awesome 26-1 in heavyweight championship fights compared to Tyson's rather pedestrian 3-2 record in heavyweight championship fights ...
Louis was champ for almost 12 years compared to Tysons 19 months ..

When was Tyson only champ 19 months & only 3-2 in championship fights?

Mikes first reign was from Nov. 22 "86" to Feb 11 "90" with 9 defenses during this time.
He won the title a second time over Buno, & a third time over Seldon.
I dont want to hear about who held the titles, it doesnt matter he handled buisiness.
Tyson cant be responsible for who owns the titles he can only beat them & that is what he did.
Both times he was on a mission he collected as many titles as possible to make sure we knew who was the real champion.
Louis wasnt 26 & 1 in title fights either he lost to then champ & much smaller titlist Esz. Charles.
If not for his respect for the former champ he would surely had been stopped again .
But we are talking about their primes so we cant use what they did to the end of there careers & Tyson has the edge in the prime category.

Louis is a great champion & he belongs higher on the all-time list above Tyson, but there styles are what we are talking about & Tyson would have ate up Louis.
Now if we are talking about ranks Louis is in the top 5 while Tyson is in the middle somewhere Joe defended the title longer & I give him the edge on longivity, & skill level The Jab of Louis would have overwelmed Tyson if the Tyson of 96 was fighting the LOuis that even fought marciano but that is not what this thread is .

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 08 Apr 2004, 01:15

I'll make it brief.

1. Louis was NOT a slow starter!!!!

2. Louis had amazing recuperative powers. that big photo on this thread is of him destroying tami mauriello just seconds after mauriello caught louis coild with a right hand that knocked him across the ring. a still photo i have of joe shows him on the ropes with a sick expression on his face. by the time mauriello got to him the bomber was completley recovered and blasting at tami. look at the picture here. he hits him so hard that mauriello's feet are both off the floor. one rond kayo by louis. I have this fight on film and heard it on radio. and this was the post war past his prime louis.

3. louis had the complete arsenal of punches. he'd be prepared for tyson. early kayo by louis, possibly in the first round if tyson started with his usual first minute onslaught.