Floyd Patterson vrs Archie Moore-A Tank Job?

[Brutu]

I have heard over the years,that possibly Archie Moore may have thrown this fight
for one reason or another.(Archie Moore claimed that he over trained for it).
Here are some clips of it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCUkqyfUjTU

[HomicideHenry]

I know on SPORTSCENTURY's bio on Archie Moore it was brought up as a possibility that he did. However, if a dive did take place I don't believe it would have been for the reason of money but for a more higher purpose. At the time boxing was under the thumb of the IBC and only IBC contracted fighters were able to get title shots---- Patterson was essentially a free agent, and Patterson winning the title broke the organisation's strangle hold on the heavyweight division. Not long after Moore lost to Patterson was the IBC under investigation from the federal government. Coincidentially Al Weil who was Marciano's manager was connected with the IBC---- so I think it was a two fold proposition, that Marciano (who fell out with Weil following the Cockell fight) announced his retirement unexpectedly and that paved the door for Patterson (who was 2-0 as a heavyweight) to be in line for the vacant title and Patterson had no ties to the IBC. Once he won the title, his manager Cus D'Amato essentially put an end to the IBC by having non-IBC connected fighters such as Pete Rademacher, Brian London, Tom McNeeley, etc. fight Patterson for the title. So, I think if a dive took place it would be with the ultimate goal in mind to put the IBC and Weil and many other underworld mobsters out of the fight game.

HOWEVER.... the truth, imho, was that Moore (after losing to Marciano) had to defend his light heavyweight crown, and then ballooned back up to heavyweight and fought three shitcan bums, and then fought Patterson all in the space of four months. He was burned out completely when he fought Patterson. But being as it may, Moore was getting older and Patterson had the fastest hands of any heavyweight in history---- even if Moore was in prime condition I don't know if he could have taken Patterson.

[Brutu]

Archie Moore appeared on YOU BET YOUR LIFE,and he told Groucho Marx
he was suppose to have a rematch with Rocky Marciano the following June
in England.
After Marciano retired(April 1956) Moore practically publicly coronated himself to be
the new heavyweight champion.
He turned down a fight personally with Ingemar Johansson in June 1956,
when Johansson approached him at a race track in England(after Moore had won a fight in England),
and Johansson told him he could make a lot of money fighting
in Sweden.

[The Great John L]

I'm not too sure I'd call Parker a "shitcan bum".

[HomicideHenry]

I'm not too sure I'd call Parker a "shitcan bum".

James J. Parker was a good heavyweight, but he wasn't out of the ordinary great either. The other men that Moore fought before facing Patterson, is whom I am referring to more than Parker. I believe one of them was a professional wrestler (one of three or four that Moore would fight in his career).

[The Great John L]

I'm not too sure I'd call Parker a "shitcan bum".

James J. Parker was a good heavyweight, but he wasn't out of the ordinary great either. The other men that Moore fought before facing Patterson, is whom I am referring to more than Parker. I believe one of them was a professional wrestler (one of three or four that Moore would fight in his career).

I would hope that we can agree that there are finer grades of fighters besides "great" and "shitcan bum".

[HomicideHenry]

I'm not too sure I'd call Parker a "shitcan bum".

James J. Parker was a good heavyweight, but he wasn't out of the ordinary great either. The other men that Moore fought before facing Patterson, is whom I am referring to more than Parker. I believe one of them was a professional wrestler (one of three or four that Moore would fight in his career).

I would hope that we can agree that there are finer grades of fighters besides "great" and "shitcan bum".

In boxing there are many levels of fighters. You have your third tiers (the 'shitcan bums'), you have your second tiers who are a cut above but not quite journeymen which is your third level, then you have guys on the fringe who are your gate keepers, then you have your contenders, then there are your elite champions---- and then there is truly great, the all timers. That is seven levels.

In the case of Moore following his loss to Marciano, Parker at the time was your fringe/gate keeper type more so than a contender though I do believe for a short while he was in the top ten. The rest of the men, who were heavyweights (am excluding Moore's light heavyweight defense after Marciano) were second tiers or complete shitcan bums.

[Brutu]

Archie Moore's walking around weight after Marciano was about 220 lbs(5 ft 11").
He had to drop a lot to defend the light heavyweight championship,and
may have even fought as a heavyweight defending the title.

[HomicideHenry]

Archie Moore's walking around weight after Marciano was about 220 lbs(5 ft 11").
He had to drop a lot to defend the light heavyweight championship,and
may have even fought as a heavyweight defending the title.

I doubt it, the whole dehydration/rehydration process was not really practiced in those times I don't believe. I know the dehydration process was, but rehydration? No. With same day weigh-in's as the fights back then, no one was going to gain back all that weight in a matter of a few hours. Not humanly possible.

[Brutu]

I was thinking of around the weight limit to be a light heavyweight back then.
I know Moore had fought some light heavyweights,when Moore was actually
heavier then when he had fought Marciano.

[HomicideHenry]

I was thinking of around the weight limit to be a light heavyweight back then.
I know Moore had fought some light heavyweights,when Moore was actually
heavier then when he had fought Marciano.

Up until the mid-late 1980's the weight limit was 176+ was a heavyweight. I do know Moore was heavier than Marciano was wen they fought, I think around 189-192 pounds. I just can't see Moore weighing more than 185 pounds in light heavyweight title fights though, considering the weigh-in's happened on the same day as the fights back then. Even if Moore had eight full hours to get fluids into his body, I can't see him putting on 15 pounds. He is going to put on about 5 pounds which would make him 180 pounds tops. If he could put on more weight than that, then Moore truly was superhuman.

[Brutu]

I dont think it was for the title that Moore fought over the light heavyweights in those fights im thinking of.
Moore should have just remained a heavyweight and fought just heavyweights for the rest of his career after Marciano if he was still interested in becoming the heavyweight champion.

[Ambling Alp II]

The Great John L said:I would hope that we can agree that there are finer grades of fighters besides "great" and "shitcan bum".[/quote]

homocidehenry said:In boxing there are many levels of fighters. You have your third tiers (the 'shitcan bums'), you have your second tiers who are a cut above but not quite journeymen which is your third level, then you have guys on the fringe who are your gate keepers, then you have your contenders, then there are your elite champions---- and then there is truly great, the all timers. That is seven levels.

In the case of Moore following his loss to Marciano, Parker at the time was your fringe/gate keeper type more so than a contender though I do believe for a short while he was in the top ten. The rest of the men, who were heavyweights (am excluding Moore's light heavyweight defense after Marciano) were second tiers or complete shitcan bums.[/quote]

I am asking:Just to clarify, it goes like this?

Level 1: Truly great , the all timers.
Level 2: Elite Champions
Level 3: Contenders
Level 4: Gatekeepers
Level 5: 2nd tiers who are above but not quite journeyman
Level 6: Journeyman
Level 7: 3rd Tiers(Shitcan bums)

[BoxBuzz]

Absolutely no way Archie gets involved with a scam. It just was not who he was. Every loss was him turning in his best, and just having a bad day.

[Brutu]

Or maybe Moore wanted to(even subconcously)get back at his manager
Charley Johnston?They were not even speaking at that point.
Supoosedly after the fight with Marciano he was heard to say"I dont care how he(Moore) is,I wanna go check the gate receipts".

You ever see the classic 1962 British"angry young man"film
THE LONELINESS OF THE LONG DISTANCE RUNNER?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4asUxvijYQ8

I don't want to give the ending of the film away,but imop this film should be required viewing
to all Brits in HS.

[Brutu]

I was thinking of around the weight limit to be a light heavyweight back then.
I know Moore had fought some light heavyweights,when Moore was actually
heavier then when he had fought Marciano.

Up until the mid-late 1980's the weight limit was 176+ was a heavyweight. I do know Moore was heavier than Marciano was wen they fought, I think around 189-192 pounds. I just can't see Moore weighing more than 185 pounds in light heavyweight title fights though, considering the weigh-in's happened on the same day as the fights back then. Even if Moore had eight full hours to get fluids into his body, I can't see him putting on 15 pounds. He is going to put on about 5 pounds which would make him 180 pounds tops. If he could put on more weight than that, then Moore truly was superhuman.

Moore weighing up to 220 lbs,that was reportedly just after his fight with Marciano,
were in his disappointment he went to his favorite hobby(eating)
I dont think that was his usual walking around weight.
Usually for his light heavyweight title defenses,he dropped about 20 pounds in 4 weeks
leading up to the fight,and 24 hours before the weigh-in he neither ate or would drink anything but only a slice of lemon.

[yancey]

The Great John L said:I would hope that we can agree that there are finer grades of fighters besides "great" and "shitcan bum".

homocidehenry said:In boxing there are many levels of fighters. You have your third tiers (the 'shitcan bums'), you have your second tiers who are a cut above but not quite journeymen which is your third level, then you have guys on the fringe who are your gate keepers, then you have your contenders, then there are your elite champions---- and then there is truly great, the all timers. That is seven levels.

In the case of Moore following his loss to Marciano, Parker at the time was your fringe/gate keeper type more so than a contender though I do believe for a short while he was in the top ten. The rest of the men, who were heavyweights (am excluding Moore's light heavyweight defense after Marciano) were second tiers or complete shitcan bums.[/quote]

I am asking:Just to clarify, it goes like this?

Level 1: Truly great , the all timers.
Level 2: Elite Champions
Level 3: Contenders
Level 4: Gatekeepers
Level 5: 2nd tiers who are above but not quite journeyman
Level 6: Journeyman
Level 7: 3rd Tiers(Shitcan bums)[/quote]

Where does a "tomato can" fit into all this?

[Mr E]

The Great John L said:I would hope that we can agree that there are finer grades of fighters besides "great" and "shitcan bum".

homocidehenry said:In boxing there are many levels of fighters. You have your third tiers (the 'shitcan bums'), you have your second tiers who are a cut above but not quite journeymen which is your third level, then you have guys on the fringe who are your gate keepers, then you have your contenders, then there are your elite champions---- and then there is truly great, the all timers. That is seven levels.

In the case of Moore following his loss to Marciano, Parker at the time was your fringe/gate keeper type more so than a contender though I do believe for a short while he was in the top ten. The rest of the men, who were heavyweights (am excluding Moore's light heavyweight defense after Marciano) were second tiers or complete shitcan bums.

I am asking:Just to clarify, it goes like this?

Level 1: Truly great , the all timers.
Level 2: Elite Champions
Level 3: Contenders
Level 4: Gatekeepers
Level 5: 2nd tiers who are above but not quite journeyman
Level 6: Journeyman
Level 7: 3rd Tiers(Shitcan bums)[/quote]

Where does a "tomato can" fit into all this?[/quote]

Would also like to know where "ham-and-eggers" and "hamburgers" fit in the heirarchy.

[Brutu]

and which catagery does a "Hambone" fall in?

[Mr E]

By the way, I think Moore was a lot better fighter than he showed against Patterson but I don't believe he took a dive. I think what happened was he fought Rocky Marciano and didn't give himself a chance to recover.

[yancey]

No dive.

Floyd was simply better.

[HomicideHenry]

Level 1: Truly great , the all timers.
Level 2: Elite Champions
Level 3: Contenders
Level 4: Gatekeepers
Level 5: 2nd tiers who are above but not quite journeyman
Level 6: Journeyman
Level 7: 3rd Tiers(Shitcan bums)

Lmao, No....

1. Truly Great, All Time Level Fighters

2. Elite Champions (Title HolderS)

3. Contenders (Top ten)

4. Gatekeepers/Fringe Contenders

5. Journeymen

6. Second Tiers

7. Third Tiers (Shitcan Bums)

One can argue there is a degree of seperation between all these levels, so there could be in theory as many as fourteen, but I think seven is appropriate. I can give all around examples of people from each level if you wish. And we will start with the heavyweight division as a example. And why not use the career of someone is was an all-time great? How about Mike Tyson?

Shitcan Bum= Hecter Mercedes

Second Tiers= Take your pick of the sub-level guys who were better than Mercedes and less than Jameson

Journeymen= Mike Jameson

Gatekeeper/Fringe Contender= Jesse Ferguson

Contender= Jose Ribalta

Elite Champions= Trevor Berbick/James Smith/Michael Spinks/Tony Tucker

All-Time Greats= Larry Holmes

[Ambling Alp II]

As for the original thread, no Moore did not do a tank job. It wasn't his best fight, but Patterson was just too good anyway.

As for the tiers; a few suggestions:
Put Ribalta in with the fringe contenders. He was never a serious contender and probably was not as good as Ferguson. Fighters such as Ernie Schaaf, Eddie Machen, Carl Williams were real contenders.

Would change the title of the Level 2. Take out "Elite Champions". It makes it seem that fighters such as Tucker, Smith, Berbick were better than average champions. Just call them title holders.

Of course you can have as many levels as you want; but I think you certainly have to have at least one level between titleholders and ATG's.
Call them "Average Champions" or something like that. Guys like Max Schmeling, Floyd Patterson, Ezzard Charles etc. would fit in there.

[HomicideHenry]

As for the original thread, no Moore did not do a tank job. It wasn't his best fight, but Patterson was just too good anyway.

As for the tiers; a few suggestions:
Put Ribalta in with the fringe contenders. He was never a serious contender and probably was not as good as Ferguson. Fighters such as Ernie Schaaf, Eddie Machen, Carl Williams were real contenders.

Would change the title of the Level 2. Take out "Elite Champions". It makes it seem that fighters such as Tucker, Smith, Berbick were better than average champions. Just call them title holders.

Of course you can have as many levels as you want; but I think you certainly have to have at least one level between titleholders and ATG's.
Call them "Average Champions" or something like that. Guys like Max Schmeling, Floyd Patterson, Ezzard Charles etc. would fit in there.

Seven levels, as I said, is more or less generalising. I do agree with the fact that there may be as much as ten levels, cus if we want to go that route, we can say "Cheese Champions" who lost the title in their first defense like Tate, Weaver, Dokes, Coetzee, etc. are in that category. "Average Champions" would be something like Patterson, Charles, and fit into that category. "All-Time Great Champions" of course would be the top 10 heavyweights of all time, guys like Holmes, Louis, Ali, Marciano, Dempsey, etc.

So after "Title Holders", it would be "Cheese Champions", "Average Champions", and "All-Time Greats" and that makes ten levels. And really, if we want to really push the limit, maybe we ought to break down the other end of the spectrum. What really classifies someone as a complete shitcan bum, tomato can, hambone, etc? Then again that is just too much work.

[Giancarlo]

Rufus, you give Hector Mercedes as an example of a 'shitcan bum'.

You, as a pro boxer, were obviously much worse than him.

What derogatory name do we apply to guys like you?