Cassius Clay 'Old Man Campaign'

[evrenb]

"Cassius Clay and the Old Man Campaign"

November 15, 1962..........Archie Moore ~ 42

January 29, 1963.............Charlie Powell ~ 30
March 13, 1963................Doug Jones ~ 26
June 18, 1963..................Henry Cooper ~ 29

February 25, 1964...........Sonny Liston ~ 36

March 25, 1965...............Sonny Liston ~ 38
November 22, 1965.........Floyd Patterson ~ 30 years, 10 months

March 29, 1966...............George Chuvalo ~ 28 years, 6 months
May 29, 1966..................Henry Cooper ~ 31 years
August 6, 1966................Brian London ~ 32 years, 2 months
September 10, 1966........Karl Mildenberger ~ 28 years, 10 months
November 14, 1966.........Cleveland Williams ~ 33 years, 5 months

February 10, 1967...........Ernie Terrell ~ 27 years, 10 months
March 22, 1967...............Zora Folley ~ 36 years

Is Listons age correct? How is 28 old?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or 27 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All of them apart from Archie are younger than the current heavyweight champions!!!!!!!!!

You are inciting trouble Il Duce !!!!

[klompton]

Yeah right. Ali was such a coward for fighting that ancient sitting heavyweight champion that was so decrepit that he should have been in the retirement home...


What a joker.

[klompton]

of the men you listed only moore, folley, williams, london, and POSSIBLY patterson could be considered past their prime. the implication that ali "looked" fast because he fought old men is just ignorant, and more bias on your part, as is the implication that he cherry picked old men. why dont you go back and quote us where each of those "old men" were ranked relative to ali by the wbc, wba, boxing ill. and ring ehen he fought them. Suddenly youre flimsy thesis falls apart... again.

[evrenb]

of the men you listed only moore, folley, williams, london, and POSSIBLY patterson could be considered past their prime. the implication that ali "looked" fast because he fought old men is just ignorant, and more bias on your part, as is the implication that he cherry picked old men. why dont you go back and quote us where each of those "old men" were ranked relative to ali by the wbc, wba, boxing ill. and ring ehen he fought them. Suddenly youre flimsy thesis falls apart... again.

I have PM 'd you Klompton

[klompton]

Source please. Its well known youve been caught making up quotes, particularly in regards to Ali. I wont believe any quote you post without a source first.

Second what us the context of the quote, what was the full conversation.

finally: go back and check the average age of the hw champ when he won the title. you will see none if these men with the exceptions i listed were "old" particularly if you factor out unusually young exceptions to the rule such as patterson and tyson.

but you knew that. you are just trolling.

[BoxBuzz]

Hey Klompton, I can appreciate your comment. However an "unusual" opinion is simply that. His opinion is vastly different than that of most, he may be eccentric as well as biased. But I don't doubt his belief. Though it does seem he has a bit of an imagination or at least some sub par standards as to where he derives the information that he has taken to heart and wishes to disseminate to others.


This is MY opinion of HIS opinions of SOME fighters. Some of his stuff actually appears to be supportable. But not on the subject of a certain remarkable HW of the 60's and 70's. I think of his comments on this subject as a form of "INFOTAINMENT".

[klompton]

Lol. Good description. I dont doubt that he WANTS what he says to be true, or that he is trying to convince himself that these things are true but when you get caught lying about "facts" more than once, get banned for lying from forums more than once (i mean come on! who gets banned for lying?) then it becomes clear that you are trying to mislead and misdirect, not inform. on a site like this, with very high standards, i think its important to curb that kind of agenda.

[yancey]

of the men you listed only moore, folley, williams, london, and POSSIBLY patterson could be considered past their prime. the implication that ali "looked" fast because he fought old men is just ignorant, and more bias on your part, as is the implication that he cherry picked old men. why dont you go back and quote us where each of those "old men" were ranked relative to ali by the wbc, wba, boxing ill. and ring ehen he fought them. Suddenly youre flimsy thesis falls apart... again.

Do you think Liston was prime in '64?

[Giancarlo]

Hey Bollockbrain, you've been banned for lying?

[klompton]

of the men you listed only moore, folley, williams, london, and POSSIBLY patterson could be considered past their prime. the implication that ali "looked" fast because he fought old men is just ignorant, and more bias on your part, as is the implication that he cherry picked old men. why dont you go back and quote us where each of those "old men" were ranked relative to ali by the wbc, wba, boxing ill. and ring ehen he fought them. Suddenly youre flimsy thesis falls apart... again.

Do you think Liston was prime in '64?

Yes. I do. But more to the point Liston had the title. What was Ali supposed to say? "Uh, I want the championship but 50 years from now I dont want some nutcase saying I only fought old men so Im not going to fight Liston." Give me a break.

The bottom line is who was Ali supposed to fight that was "young." You select your opposition from the best, not from the youngest. The vast majority of fighters Ali fought during his first (and second) reign were fighters that were recognized as being top ten fighters. If you are going to criticize him for fighting fighters who were in the top ten without offering up alternatives then its pretty much a given you are nitpicking his record based on a personal bias, which is now obvious to all.

[man]

the average age of these 14 fighters is 31.9 years.
the average age of the current top hw fighters here
on boxrec is 32.6. my guess is the average age of
the top 14 heavy weight fighters at anyone point in
time was very close to these numbers.

ali was 2o, when he defeated liston. what do people
in their early twenties think about guys in their early
thirties? grandfathers.

"old man campaign" is a myth. as well as ali looking
fast, while only being faster than his opponents. well,
there is film. ali moved with an ease in, out and sideway
like no heavy before or since. out for everyone to see.

[klompton]

Answer me this question il duce: Who was Ali's #1 contender when he fought Floyd Patterson and who won the fight of the year that year? Dont give me this revisionist bullshit that Ali and his people knew going into the fight that Patterson was injured. The only evidence you have that ANYONE knew Patterson was injured going into the fight was a statement somebody made AFTERWARDS. So I dont want to hear anymore of this revisionist garbage by you which completely ignores the facts and context of the era. Talk about awful history. That junk works for the tinfoil hat brigade but not people who understand how life actually works. I realize you want so bad for Thad Spencer to have been the #1 contender at that time and I realize you think he was a better contender than Patterson (something he never proved at any point in his career). But the fact remains that he wasnt and not Ali, nor Bill Faversham, nor Patterson, or anyone else but Thad Spencer, who spent more time drinking, doing cocaine, and banging chicks, is to blame for that fact. You might as well go and complain that Jeff Merritt, who like Thad Spencer was an overrated flash in the pan, was robbed his opportunity as well, or any number of other fighters who spent about five seconds in the ratings and got written up a couple of times.

If Ali was fighting old men who was Thad Spencer fighting? You listed Terrell and Doug Jones as two of the old men that Ali fought and yet those are Spencer's two best wins. So who are all of these young guns that Spencer bravely took on and defeated while Ali was cowardly fighting these old men? Lets see, was it Brian London who was 32 which is old to you? Was it Bill McMurray who he lost to when Bill was 30? Was it Amos Lincoln who was almost 31 when Spencer finally beat him after three tries?

[yancey]

of the men you listed only moore, folley, williams, london, and POSSIBLY patterson could be considered past their prime. the implication that ali "looked" fast because he fought old men is just ignorant, and more bias on your part, as is the implication that he cherry picked old men. why dont you go back and quote us where each of those "old men" were ranked relative to ali by the wbc, wba, boxing ill. and ring ehen he fought them. Suddenly youre flimsy thesis falls apart... again.

Do you think Liston was prime in '64?

Yes. I do. But more to the point Liston had the title. What was Ali supposed to say? "Uh, I want the championship but 50 years from now I dont want some nutcase saying I only fought old men so Im not going to fight Liston." Give me a break.

The bottom line is who was Ali supposed to fight that was "young." You select your opposition from the best, not from the youngest. The vast majority of fighters Ali fought during his first (and second) reign were fighters that were recognized as being top ten fighters. If you are going to criticize him for fighting fighters who were in the top ten without offering up alternatives then its pretty much a given you are nitpicking his record based on a personal bias, which is now obvious to all.

Yes, yes, I agree with the gist of what you're saying.

I was just asking if you thought Sonny was prime in '64. (nothing to do with the Ali issue)

You seem to think Sonny was prime in '64.

I amiably disagree.

[klompton]

Sonnys prime is difficult guage due to his age and relative late entry into the sport. I dont know if sonny actually got to benefit from a "prime" but i think in 1964 he was as good as he ever was. whether he took ali serious enough is a different but that has more to do with his own faults/weaknesses than being past his prime. its hard for me to believe that he was suddenly over the hill for ali (i think that loss is more down to styles) or that he was already past his best when he beat patterson.

[dempseyfire]

Yes, instead of beating Terrell, Chuvalo, Folley he was ducking Thad Spencer . . .

Duce I don't think even you believe this garbage; this is troll-baiting pure and simple.

[evrenb]

Answer me this question il duce: Who was Ali's #1 contender when he fought Floyd Patterson and who won the fight of the year that year? Dont give me this revisionist bullshit that Ali and his people knew going into the fight that Patterson was injured. The only evidence you have that ANYONE knew Patterson was injured going into the fight was a statement somebody made AFTERWARDS. So I dont want to hear anymore of this revisionist garbage by you which completely ignores the facts and context of the era. Talk about awful history. That junk works for the tinfoil hat brigade but not people who understand how life actually works. I realize you want so bad for Thad Spencer to have been the #1 contender at that time and I realize you think he was a better contender than Patterson (something he never proved at any point in his career). But the fact remains that he wasnt and not Ali, nor Bill Faversham, nor Patterson, or anyone else but Thad Spencer, who spent more time drinking, doing cocaine, and banging chicks, is to blame for that fact. You might as well go and complain that Jeff Merritt, who like Thad Spencer was an overrated flash in the pan, was robbed his opportunity as well, or any number of other fighters who spent about five seconds in the ratings and got written up a couple of times.



If Ali was fighting old men who was Thad Spencer fighting? You listed Terrell and Doug Jones as two of the old men that Ali fought and yet those are Spencer's two best wins. So who are all of these young guns that Spencer bravely took on and defeated while Ali was cowardly fighting these old men? Lets see, was it Brian London who was 32 which is old to you? Was it Bill McMurray who he lost to when Bill was 30? Was it Amos Lincoln who was almost 31 when Spencer finally beat him after three tries?

Funniest thing i have ever read....
Also the Liston age that Duce wrote was wrong so the averages are wrong....Liston wasn't 38??

[raylawpc]

Would it be possible for you to attribute these quotes of yours from Faversham and Ali? (You called him "Clay" but by '66 he'd changed to Ali.) Thank you.

[man]

il duce,

question: why did you choose this name?

thnx.

[p4p1]

Cassius Clay - really pre-April 1967.

The man was still signing contracts using the name Cassius Clay in 1966 and 1967.

And he didn't mind being called Cassius by his circle of friends.

Every News Organization, Sportscaster and Sports Writer used Cassius Clay when referring
to the Heavyweight Champion.

The only time he made an issue when you called him Cassius Clay......was when he was 'on camera',
to play to the public.

I would like to see a source on the contract signings. Does it really matter what the sports writers were calling him a lot refused to understand the change of name.

Maybe he didn't mind his friends calling him Cassius, maybe he felt strangers calling him it was a sign of disrespect though because they never really knew him as Cassius. He would probably understand that his friends can't change a reaction when calling his name over night. Regardless of what they called him all we have right now is your word for conformation and you have been proved to make things up before.

[BoxBuzz]

Il Duce....here is some "social science" for you.....there was not a precedent for a famous person changing there name in such a manner....Unless you were female and married a lot...lol.....so if he was going through some changes and dealing with it in the best way he knew how...why make it an issue? I believe he was spirtually in transition...he claims it to be so....and his family who loved him were confused...so he may well have been being gentle to them as they were mourning the "loss of their cassius" and the name THEY gave him in a loving manner.

He did not hate his parents or family...and surely needed time to help them though his transition. Sounds as if he simply did not want to treat them with hate or disdain, that was never his intent. That's a pretty personal journey...one i would not want to judge.

As far as legal document...you'd have to do a paper chase as to when the courts "allowed" Mr Clay to have that legal requirement fullfilled. These days it's easy...puff daddy can be signing a new contract tomorrow as Wiley Coyote with his legal connections. But back then you can bet a judge was playing political games with Mr Clay's decision. So he was bound to do the correct legal thing or risk anything he signed as being null and void.

You seem to give thoughtful reflection to statistics, and rankings, numbers etc. Maybe this sort of subjective judgment isn't your forte. One must be able to emote on some of these types of life experiences. It's not all math.

Now I'm not telling you to eat sausage, but perhaps more protein in your morning meal is not a bad idea. I suggest Greek Yogurt...high in protein, low in fat, stimulates brain activity and enhances one's ability to engage in energized mindful processing.

[klompton]

I didn't know you were connected to the Ali family either il duce. Do tell.

So Ali changed his name to get out of the Vietnam War? Somebody needs to tell him the war is over then.

[Giancarlo]

More lies.

[klompton]

I didn't know you were connected to the Ali family either il duce. Do tell.

So Ali changed his name to get out of the Vietnam War? Somebody needs to tell him the war is over then.

My family did business with the LSG Management Team and Cassius Clay in 1963,

He did not change his name to get out of the Vietnam War, he changed his name to avoid 'induction'
into the United States Military, which had/have Military Bases all over the World including......... the United States.

Get your History correct............Nobody was sending Cassius Clay to Vietnam,,,,,,,,,,,,

Lies. You are pathetic. Your family had dealings with LSG, just like you once said you were a WBA official.

[BoxBuzz]

Duce, did you just change the subject on me? I don't think you addressed anything. You simply threw out another assumption. I was not connected with the family, just going with the odds here.

You need to go back and read your own contributions. They are somewhat coherent with the exception of one subject.

I don't get it, why such a dog in the race? Pacifists are a dime a dozen....and you can be in any career choice and still be a pacifist. I'm not one....but I'm a live and let live non pacifist. (As long as those who interact with me respect three simple words "Don't tread on me". Otherwise I keep hardware at the ready for those who feel they wish to impose.

[klompton]

You know in this situation its not just a name which is why you use it as a derogatory term.