It seems in recent years Chris Dundee is almost entirely known as a boxing promoter, but lost in time is the fact that Chris was one of the greatest managers in history.
Chris Dundee started his apprenticeship helping famed Philadelphia trainer, Jimmy Coster, condition some of his fighters including Young Joe Dundee (Chris' older brother). Soon after he became co-manager of the peerless Midget Wolgast. Owing to the overcrowded boxing landscape in Philadelphia, Chris decided to pull up stakes and left Philly on August 2, 1930 to promote boxing in Norfolk-taking along his small stable of boxers-Dick Welsh, Pete Pantaleo, Danny Taub and Jackie Levinson. One of the great hustlers in boxing Chris successfully promoted shows all over Virginia, even encroaching into Washington D.C., into the early 1940's all the while securing a huge stable of fighters.
During the 40's Dundee moved his headquarters to New York where he stayed until 1950 when he decided to shift to Miami as a promoter and achieving great success. Hank Kaplan always said that Chris Dundee largely directed the career of Muhammad (Cassius Clay) Ali, as he was always consulted on career moves that Ali made. A master of making the deal, Chris was happiest when holding a phone to each ear while negotiating with two different fight managers on each line. Hank also said Chris rarely would talk about the "old days" believing that one should only be interested in the present and future in order to escape old age.
For anybody that interested, following is a list of most of the headliners that Chris Dundee managed at some point in their careers :
Ken Overlin, Georgie Abrams, Young Stuhley, Irish Bob Turner, Toots Bernstein, Phil Furr, Norman Quarles, Nick Camarata, Ted Christie, Tony Cisco, Irish Eddie Dunn, Frankie Cavanna, Angelo Puglisi, Irish Jimmy Webb, Phil Cardy, Izzy Jannazzo, Jackie Cranford, Walter Hafer, Bob Isler, Laverne Roach, Billy Cooper, Randy Brown, Chico Pacheco, Maxie Starr, Johnny Williams, Filberto Osario, Bobby Lee, Cliff Hart, Oswaldo Silva, Sanders Cox, Ruben Shank, Charley Hayes, Irish Billy Walker, Cal. Jackie Wilson, Leo Milito, Philly Johnny Walker, Cosby Linson, Sonny Seidman, Jose Basora, Marvin Bryant, Tommy Bell, Pete Lello, Perk Daniels, Eldridge Eatman, Tommy Roman, Sammy Parrotto, Mario Ochoa, Tony Ferrara, Willie Pavlovich, Sammy Magro, Art Lind, Charley Ketchuck, Nunzio Ferrara, Joe Lindsey, Jimmy Cooper, Stonewall Jackson, Ernie Pelaia, Art Llanos, Mike Koballa, Rusty Payne, Bill Bossio, Willie Bean, Bob Baker, Bobby Dykes. It was widely rumored that he had a large "piece" of Ezzard Charles. An amazing career in boxing and one of the "true" all time greats.
** - Source - RING magazine "Manager's Directory" 1938 thru 1950 issues.
CHRIS DUNDEE
CHRIS DUNDEE
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Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
Interesting post. Here and there you hear about him but not all that often. Was he actually a trainer and/or cornerman at any time as well? I read Angelo Dundee's autobiography, but can't remember if he mentioned this.
For a while when Chris was a promoter, it was a time where there was no one or two promoters had a monopoly, which was probably a good thing. Then Arum and King took over.
For a while when Chris was a promoter, it was a time where there was no one or two promoters had a monopoly, which was probably a good thing. Then Arum and King took over.
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
Il Duce wrote:Chris Dundee
Big Time Wrestling Promoter too in Miami Beach.
Ran Events all the time,,,,,,,,featuring 'gags' and 'props'.
Many down in Miami Beach still think it was Chris Dundee who came up with the
'liniment-in-the-eye' gag that was pulled in Round 5 at the Sonny Liston vs. Cassius Clay
Heavyweight Championship bout in February 1964 in Miami Beach.
That's preposterous as it suggests Ali was in on the alleged ruse. If he was in on it he wouldn't have went back to his corner said "cut off my gloves...I want to show the world there's evil afoot."
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
I wrote this piece on Chris in 2000 and Ferdie Pacheco reproduced in Tales of the Fifth Street Gym. It captures Chris.
--------------------------------------------------------------------.
CHRIS DUNDEE'S LAWS OF BOXING AND PROMOTIONS
BY ENRIQUE ENCINOSA
When I met him he was already a legend. Chris Dundee was then in his late sixties, but still promoting a dozen fight shows a year, booking fighters to Europe and Las Vegas, running his beloved, termite infested Fifth Street Gym, the house where legends trained.
Chris Dundee's boxing career stretched for seven decades, from the age of speakeasies to the age of computers. In his lifetime, Chris promoted over a thousand professional boxing shows, handled the careers of several champions, dozens of contenders and a small army of preliminary pugs.
When Chris Dundee became involved in boxing, people listened to a new sound called jazz, played by young gods of the horn named Armstrong and Beiderbecke. Liquor was outlawed but all drank bathtub gin and admired the daring of Lindbergh. It was the time when Dempsey was champ, the Babe was Sultan of Swat and John Barrymore had a dashing profile. Hitler was a little known local political figure in Germany and the stock market crash that brought the age of economic depression had not yet cast its dark shadow over Wall Street.
By the time Dundee called it a day, the depression, a world war, conflicts in Korea and Vietnam had concluded. Juice bars with avocado protein drinks had replaced the speakeasies, techno-rock was the new vogue sound, fax machines and the Internet were changing world communications and Dan Marino was a seasoned football star.
In between those two moments of beginning and end, Chris Dundee promoted title fights that included the birth of the Ali legend, managed world champions, and was a top booking agent.
In his lifetime, Chris Dundee knew such literati as Hemmingway and Mailer, smoked Cuban cigars with Errol Flynn, attended parties with George Raft and Ed Sullivan, played cards with Rocky Marciano. At his place of business, a termite-eaten gym, The Beatles met Muhammad Ali in a gathering of icons moment of the sixties.
The seven decades of boxing began when a young Chris Mirena became the boxing manager for his brother, a club fighter who battled under the name of Joe Dundee. When Joe retired, Chris kept the Dundee name. Although most of his fighters were older than he was, Chris learned the tricks of the trade with the skill of a virtuoso. At the age of twenty-three, the young manager guided Midget Wolgast to a world title as king of the flyweights.
Chris Dundee sailed through the Great Depression promoting club fights, managing and booking prelim boys and topnotch fighters. Crowded by New York competition, which included some totally unscrupulous characters, Chris looked for a virgin territory in which to establish his kingdom.
Chris fell in love with Miami Beach, the land of art-deco hotels, golden beaches and exotic rum drinks. Boxing had been promoted with some success in the Magic City, but at the time Chris made his move, in the forties, Miami Beach was ready for a hard working fight impresario.
So was born the Fifth Street Gym, the revered temple of sweat where the Ali legend was to be sparked, where Luis Rodriguez, Willie Pastrano and other Hall-of-Famers plied their trade. From the mid-forties to the early nineties Dundee promoted boxing, often at a loss, making up income on wrestling shows and an occasional circus troupe.
He was a real promoter. In this modern age of pay-per-view and television contracts, promotions feed on media advertising to make deals. Chris Dundee did all that, the title fights, the television shows, closed circuit theater fights and hundreds of cheap cards to keep the fighters busy.
"He was a hustler when it came to promoting ticket sales," the great historian Hank Kaplan remarked, "Chris would visit the track, local hotels and all sorts of public events. Since he was so well known, many strangers would come say hello and Chris would pitch his upcoming card. He always had a book of tickets with him and would sell them ringside or general admissions on the spot."
Dundee guided the careers of champions Ken Overlin, Ezzard Charles, "The Cincinnati Cobra," and the first Bahamian to win a world crown, Elisha Obed. Dundee promoted the first Ali-Liston bout, when the Great One still used his slave name of Cassius Clay.
"The title fights and TV fights are easy," Chris once said, "It's the club fights with five hundred paying customers that are hard. There's no budget."
Since the budget was limited, Chris was often unable to afford fighters from other cities. The Dundee solution was to have a couple of dozen local prelim fighters fight each other over and over. In 1963 and 1964, peak years for Chris, his crew of featherweights and lightweights was made up of Jerry Powers, Sandy Seabrooke, Winston Green, Bobby Marie, Berlin Roberts, Santos Flores and George Sawyer. This was a busy little group that fought each other over and over, for years.
Jerry Powers fought over a hundred fights in his all-prelim career, but almost seventy of those bouts took place in 1963-1964. In those two years "The Prince of Second Avenue" fought Sandy Seabrooke twelve times, Berlin Roberts eight
times, Winston Green seven, George Sawyer six and Santos Flores only five. In the same two-year span, Bobby Marie fought Seabrooke on five occasions and went three against Sawyer. Winston Green, who faced Powers on seven prelim fights, also traded leather twice each with Seabrooke and Flores and once with Roberts.
"If two guys put up a good scrap," former lightweight contender Frankie Otero remarked, "Chris would book a rematch. If you were a prelim fighter who wanted to fight and were not too picky about your opponent, Dundee would give you work."
"Mostly he had fights," Ferdie Pacheco once told me, "shoestring budget for some shows but he kept it going. Even when he wasn't scheduled to fight, Jerry Powers would show up with his gym bag and if Chris was one bout short, it would be a four-rounder with Jerry and any of the other seven or eight guys like him who fought each other all the time."
I learned much about the fight game from Chris Dundee. In the early eighties when I was part of the promotional team of Hank Kaplan-Ramiro Ortiz in Fort Lauderdale, Chris was our consultant guru. His short statements defined situations so well, that among his friends, the statements were jokingly called "Chris Dundee's Laws."
"Chris Dundee's Law on Betting," Frankie Otero remarked, "was -Never bet against an unbeaten fighter."
His laws on promotion were similar pearls of wisdom gathered since the days of Dempsey and Tunney.
"When you put on a card," Chris told me, "always put on your worst bout first and your best fight at the end. This way, you get the worst match out of the way while the people are sitting down or buying hot dogs, and then they go home remembering the last bouts, which were the best fights."
Dundee's Law of Prelim Fights: "The perfect undercard fight is when you have two guys who like to throw a lot of punches and neither one of them can crack an egg. Then the fight goes the distance, no one gets hurt and the fans are happy."
Dundee's Law on Heavyweights: "Anything can happen when big guys clash."
Dundee's Law on Complimentary Tickets: "Once you give a complimentary ticket to a paying customer, you will lose a paying customer forever."
Dundee's Law on Cutting Purses: "Always cut a purse. If you don't, because the kid is just making small change on a prelim fight, then six or seven fights later when you cut the purse for the first time the fighter will look at you like you are raping him. Always cut the purse. It's important the fighter understands the business relationship."
Dundee's Law on House Fighters: "Protect a house fighter but never to the point it hurts the reputation of the promotion. Give the local fighter an edge but the house pays to see a fight. The first priority of a promoter is to put on good fights."
"Chris was really good at matchmaking," Frankie Otero remarked, "I had a great corner with Richie Riesgo, Luis Sarria and Ferdie Pacheco, but I owe my career to Chris. He knew how to match me. -This guy is going to make you work hard, Frankie- he would say -but if you are in shape and box him you will beat him- Chris knew something about every fighter.if the guy was in shape, if he took a shot, if his reflexes were fading. Chris was very sharp. When he made matches for me with Kenny Weldon and Jimmy Trosclair he knew they would be competitive fights, but I won them because Chris understood both my talents and my limitations as a fighter and the same for my opponents. He made me a local hero and a contender."
Dundee made significant income over the decades by booking Florida based fighters in Europe. Local prelim boys with so-so records would fly across the Atlantic, lose to a European or British champion and pick up a payday five times the size of a hometown stake. Chris would book fights for a ten to fifteen per cent fee.
During the years I was also matchmaking and booking fighters, my sleep was often interrupted by a Chris Dundee call.
"Wake up," he would say, "I need a welterweight for London. Ten rounds against the British and Commonwealth Champion. It pays three thousand. Can you get someone?"
"Chris," I would answer, looking at the digital numbers on the nightstand clock, "It's three o'clock in the morning."
"Not in London," Chris would answer from his Miami Beach home, "they just called me and they need a welterweight now. See if you can get someone. I'll call you back in a half an hour."
Chris was a persistent salesman who could drive a hard deal. When a hotel in the Cayman Islands staged a pro card, Dundee called to offer a fight. I had a welterweight prelim fighter with a nine-and-three record that Chris, in his matchmaking wisdom, had figured as a pleasing opponent for a good prospect on the edge of contender status. Chris offered $ 800 for an eight rounder, plus expenses. I turned it down.
"Why?" Chris looked at me with a convincing countenance of stunned disbelief.
"Ralph Twinning is undefeated in seventeen fights and is a southpaw. It's a very tough fight for very short money, Chris."
"Think about it."
"The answer is no, Chris."
A month later I was matchmaking a card in Hialeah. Needing to complete an eight-rounder, I dropped by Dundee's small office at the Miami Beach Convention Center.
"I need a cruiser to fight Dynamite Perez," I said, "it's an eight rounder."
"The Bahamian fighters are training here now," Chris said, "and Gary Clark is experienced. We can do it for fifteen hundred."
Chris nodded his head vigorously, hoping I would nod back in agreement.
"Same deal as with Ralph Twinning," I said, "eight hundred for eight rounds and he doesn't have to travel far to fight."
"No!" Chris answered, "this is a good fight."
"Sure it is," I answered, "an even fight that could go either way. It's good."
"A thousand," Chris said, "It's a main event."
"It's a small promotion and the money is tight."
"A thousand," Chris repeated like a mantra.
"Thanks but I have to go make some calls," I said "If you won't take it for eight hundred I'll get some farm boy from Homestead to go against Perez for five hundred in a six. It won't be much of a fight but the rest of the card is solid."
"A thousand."
"Bye, Chris."
He followed me to the parking lot.
"Nine hundred."
"Okay."
"Young man," he said, shaking my hand as he smiled, "you have learned the business."
Although he drove hard bargains and could argue with a booking agent for an hour over a fifty-dollar expense, Chris Dundee had a warm heart. He donated money to charities and once a year, every Thanksgiving, he would host a huge dinner for his boxing people at a local restaurant.
Sportswriter Tom Archdeacon called it a "Pug's Thanksgiving Feast," and it was a moving moment of camaraderie among men whose bond is the communion of pain in a squared ring.
Chris Dundee's Thanksgiving Dinner was attended by the successful and the destitute, by upcoming prospects and old prelim fighters with scarred eyebrows, by paunchy old men who once strutted their stuff under bright lights, when their muscles were young and supple.
It was a spectacular group. There was ancient Sellout Moe Fleischer who had known Bat Masterson, had managed Kid Chocolate and trained Tom Heeney. Across from Moe, sat Sully Emmett, a little man with an incomprehensible chatter and an eternal, well-chewed cigar stub on the corner of his mouth. There were also several generations of prelim fighters represented, men who talked amongst themselves of six hard rounds fought for meager paydays, yet rejoiced in the retelling of the hard fights, wishing they could turn back the clock, to do it all over again. As many as thirty people attended the once a year dinner and Chris paid the full bill.
Chris Dundee died at a nursing home in Florida in November of 1998. The funeral home was packed with familiar faces. Angelo, Robert Daniels, Uriah Grant, Frankie Otero, Chuck Talhami, faces from the Fifth Street Gym.
Tommy Torino was once a competent welterweight, a veteran of several dozen pro fights while in his teen years, a boy who grew to manhood in the gym. Tommy is a full-time promoter and manager, a disciple of the Chris Dundee constant hustle promotional system. Standing in front of the funeral home, looking at the crowd, Tommy looked glum. Chris had been his guru in the fight game.
"Hey, Tommy," I said, "look at this crowd. This is Chris' last public appearance. We should have put on a couple of sixes and charged admission."
Tommy's glumness seemed to vanish. A slight smile appeared on his face.
You know what?" he said, "Chris would have loved it. Just loved it."
--------------------------------------------------------------------.
CHRIS DUNDEE'S LAWS OF BOXING AND PROMOTIONS
BY ENRIQUE ENCINOSA
When I met him he was already a legend. Chris Dundee was then in his late sixties, but still promoting a dozen fight shows a year, booking fighters to Europe and Las Vegas, running his beloved, termite infested Fifth Street Gym, the house where legends trained.
Chris Dundee's boxing career stretched for seven decades, from the age of speakeasies to the age of computers. In his lifetime, Chris promoted over a thousand professional boxing shows, handled the careers of several champions, dozens of contenders and a small army of preliminary pugs.
When Chris Dundee became involved in boxing, people listened to a new sound called jazz, played by young gods of the horn named Armstrong and Beiderbecke. Liquor was outlawed but all drank bathtub gin and admired the daring of Lindbergh. It was the time when Dempsey was champ, the Babe was Sultan of Swat and John Barrymore had a dashing profile. Hitler was a little known local political figure in Germany and the stock market crash that brought the age of economic depression had not yet cast its dark shadow over Wall Street.
By the time Dundee called it a day, the depression, a world war, conflicts in Korea and Vietnam had concluded. Juice bars with avocado protein drinks had replaced the speakeasies, techno-rock was the new vogue sound, fax machines and the Internet were changing world communications and Dan Marino was a seasoned football star.
In between those two moments of beginning and end, Chris Dundee promoted title fights that included the birth of the Ali legend, managed world champions, and was a top booking agent.
In his lifetime, Chris Dundee knew such literati as Hemmingway and Mailer, smoked Cuban cigars with Errol Flynn, attended parties with George Raft and Ed Sullivan, played cards with Rocky Marciano. At his place of business, a termite-eaten gym, The Beatles met Muhammad Ali in a gathering of icons moment of the sixties.
The seven decades of boxing began when a young Chris Mirena became the boxing manager for his brother, a club fighter who battled under the name of Joe Dundee. When Joe retired, Chris kept the Dundee name. Although most of his fighters were older than he was, Chris learned the tricks of the trade with the skill of a virtuoso. At the age of twenty-three, the young manager guided Midget Wolgast to a world title as king of the flyweights.
Chris Dundee sailed through the Great Depression promoting club fights, managing and booking prelim boys and topnotch fighters. Crowded by New York competition, which included some totally unscrupulous characters, Chris looked for a virgin territory in which to establish his kingdom.
Chris fell in love with Miami Beach, the land of art-deco hotels, golden beaches and exotic rum drinks. Boxing had been promoted with some success in the Magic City, but at the time Chris made his move, in the forties, Miami Beach was ready for a hard working fight impresario.
So was born the Fifth Street Gym, the revered temple of sweat where the Ali legend was to be sparked, where Luis Rodriguez, Willie Pastrano and other Hall-of-Famers plied their trade. From the mid-forties to the early nineties Dundee promoted boxing, often at a loss, making up income on wrestling shows and an occasional circus troupe.
He was a real promoter. In this modern age of pay-per-view and television contracts, promotions feed on media advertising to make deals. Chris Dundee did all that, the title fights, the television shows, closed circuit theater fights and hundreds of cheap cards to keep the fighters busy.
"He was a hustler when it came to promoting ticket sales," the great historian Hank Kaplan remarked, "Chris would visit the track, local hotels and all sorts of public events. Since he was so well known, many strangers would come say hello and Chris would pitch his upcoming card. He always had a book of tickets with him and would sell them ringside or general admissions on the spot."
Dundee guided the careers of champions Ken Overlin, Ezzard Charles, "The Cincinnati Cobra," and the first Bahamian to win a world crown, Elisha Obed. Dundee promoted the first Ali-Liston bout, when the Great One still used his slave name of Cassius Clay.
"The title fights and TV fights are easy," Chris once said, "It's the club fights with five hundred paying customers that are hard. There's no budget."
Since the budget was limited, Chris was often unable to afford fighters from other cities. The Dundee solution was to have a couple of dozen local prelim fighters fight each other over and over. In 1963 and 1964, peak years for Chris, his crew of featherweights and lightweights was made up of Jerry Powers, Sandy Seabrooke, Winston Green, Bobby Marie, Berlin Roberts, Santos Flores and George Sawyer. This was a busy little group that fought each other over and over, for years.
Jerry Powers fought over a hundred fights in his all-prelim career, but almost seventy of those bouts took place in 1963-1964. In those two years "The Prince of Second Avenue" fought Sandy Seabrooke twelve times, Berlin Roberts eight
times, Winston Green seven, George Sawyer six and Santos Flores only five. In the same two-year span, Bobby Marie fought Seabrooke on five occasions and went three against Sawyer. Winston Green, who faced Powers on seven prelim fights, also traded leather twice each with Seabrooke and Flores and once with Roberts.
"If two guys put up a good scrap," former lightweight contender Frankie Otero remarked, "Chris would book a rematch. If you were a prelim fighter who wanted to fight and were not too picky about your opponent, Dundee would give you work."
"Mostly he had fights," Ferdie Pacheco once told me, "shoestring budget for some shows but he kept it going. Even when he wasn't scheduled to fight, Jerry Powers would show up with his gym bag and if Chris was one bout short, it would be a four-rounder with Jerry and any of the other seven or eight guys like him who fought each other all the time."
I learned much about the fight game from Chris Dundee. In the early eighties when I was part of the promotional team of Hank Kaplan-Ramiro Ortiz in Fort Lauderdale, Chris was our consultant guru. His short statements defined situations so well, that among his friends, the statements were jokingly called "Chris Dundee's Laws."
"Chris Dundee's Law on Betting," Frankie Otero remarked, "was -Never bet against an unbeaten fighter."
His laws on promotion were similar pearls of wisdom gathered since the days of Dempsey and Tunney.
"When you put on a card," Chris told me, "always put on your worst bout first and your best fight at the end. This way, you get the worst match out of the way while the people are sitting down or buying hot dogs, and then they go home remembering the last bouts, which were the best fights."
Dundee's Law of Prelim Fights: "The perfect undercard fight is when you have two guys who like to throw a lot of punches and neither one of them can crack an egg. Then the fight goes the distance, no one gets hurt and the fans are happy."
Dundee's Law on Heavyweights: "Anything can happen when big guys clash."
Dundee's Law on Complimentary Tickets: "Once you give a complimentary ticket to a paying customer, you will lose a paying customer forever."
Dundee's Law on Cutting Purses: "Always cut a purse. If you don't, because the kid is just making small change on a prelim fight, then six or seven fights later when you cut the purse for the first time the fighter will look at you like you are raping him. Always cut the purse. It's important the fighter understands the business relationship."
Dundee's Law on House Fighters: "Protect a house fighter but never to the point it hurts the reputation of the promotion. Give the local fighter an edge but the house pays to see a fight. The first priority of a promoter is to put on good fights."
"Chris was really good at matchmaking," Frankie Otero remarked, "I had a great corner with Richie Riesgo, Luis Sarria and Ferdie Pacheco, but I owe my career to Chris. He knew how to match me. -This guy is going to make you work hard, Frankie- he would say -but if you are in shape and box him you will beat him- Chris knew something about every fighter.if the guy was in shape, if he took a shot, if his reflexes were fading. Chris was very sharp. When he made matches for me with Kenny Weldon and Jimmy Trosclair he knew they would be competitive fights, but I won them because Chris understood both my talents and my limitations as a fighter and the same for my opponents. He made me a local hero and a contender."
Dundee made significant income over the decades by booking Florida based fighters in Europe. Local prelim boys with so-so records would fly across the Atlantic, lose to a European or British champion and pick up a payday five times the size of a hometown stake. Chris would book fights for a ten to fifteen per cent fee.
During the years I was also matchmaking and booking fighters, my sleep was often interrupted by a Chris Dundee call.
"Wake up," he would say, "I need a welterweight for London. Ten rounds against the British and Commonwealth Champion. It pays three thousand. Can you get someone?"
"Chris," I would answer, looking at the digital numbers on the nightstand clock, "It's three o'clock in the morning."
"Not in London," Chris would answer from his Miami Beach home, "they just called me and they need a welterweight now. See if you can get someone. I'll call you back in a half an hour."
Chris was a persistent salesman who could drive a hard deal. When a hotel in the Cayman Islands staged a pro card, Dundee called to offer a fight. I had a welterweight prelim fighter with a nine-and-three record that Chris, in his matchmaking wisdom, had figured as a pleasing opponent for a good prospect on the edge of contender status. Chris offered $ 800 for an eight rounder, plus expenses. I turned it down.
"Why?" Chris looked at me with a convincing countenance of stunned disbelief.
"Ralph Twinning is undefeated in seventeen fights and is a southpaw. It's a very tough fight for very short money, Chris."
"Think about it."
"The answer is no, Chris."
A month later I was matchmaking a card in Hialeah. Needing to complete an eight-rounder, I dropped by Dundee's small office at the Miami Beach Convention Center.
"I need a cruiser to fight Dynamite Perez," I said, "it's an eight rounder."
"The Bahamian fighters are training here now," Chris said, "and Gary Clark is experienced. We can do it for fifteen hundred."
Chris nodded his head vigorously, hoping I would nod back in agreement.
"Same deal as with Ralph Twinning," I said, "eight hundred for eight rounds and he doesn't have to travel far to fight."
"No!" Chris answered, "this is a good fight."
"Sure it is," I answered, "an even fight that could go either way. It's good."
"A thousand," Chris said, "It's a main event."
"It's a small promotion and the money is tight."
"A thousand," Chris repeated like a mantra.
"Thanks but I have to go make some calls," I said "If you won't take it for eight hundred I'll get some farm boy from Homestead to go against Perez for five hundred in a six. It won't be much of a fight but the rest of the card is solid."
"A thousand."
"Bye, Chris."
He followed me to the parking lot.
"Nine hundred."
"Okay."
"Young man," he said, shaking my hand as he smiled, "you have learned the business."
Although he drove hard bargains and could argue with a booking agent for an hour over a fifty-dollar expense, Chris Dundee had a warm heart. He donated money to charities and once a year, every Thanksgiving, he would host a huge dinner for his boxing people at a local restaurant.
Sportswriter Tom Archdeacon called it a "Pug's Thanksgiving Feast," and it was a moving moment of camaraderie among men whose bond is the communion of pain in a squared ring.
Chris Dundee's Thanksgiving Dinner was attended by the successful and the destitute, by upcoming prospects and old prelim fighters with scarred eyebrows, by paunchy old men who once strutted their stuff under bright lights, when their muscles were young and supple.
It was a spectacular group. There was ancient Sellout Moe Fleischer who had known Bat Masterson, had managed Kid Chocolate and trained Tom Heeney. Across from Moe, sat Sully Emmett, a little man with an incomprehensible chatter and an eternal, well-chewed cigar stub on the corner of his mouth. There were also several generations of prelim fighters represented, men who talked amongst themselves of six hard rounds fought for meager paydays, yet rejoiced in the retelling of the hard fights, wishing they could turn back the clock, to do it all over again. As many as thirty people attended the once a year dinner and Chris paid the full bill.
Chris Dundee died at a nursing home in Florida in November of 1998. The funeral home was packed with familiar faces. Angelo, Robert Daniels, Uriah Grant, Frankie Otero, Chuck Talhami, faces from the Fifth Street Gym.
Tommy Torino was once a competent welterweight, a veteran of several dozen pro fights while in his teen years, a boy who grew to manhood in the gym. Tommy is a full-time promoter and manager, a disciple of the Chris Dundee constant hustle promotional system. Standing in front of the funeral home, looking at the crowd, Tommy looked glum. Chris had been his guru in the fight game.
"Hey, Tommy," I said, "look at this crowd. This is Chris' last public appearance. We should have put on a couple of sixes and charged admission."
Tommy's glumness seemed to vanish. A slight smile appeared on his face.
You know what?" he said, "Chris would have loved it. Just loved it."
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
What a tremendous article Enrique Espinosa wrote on Chris Dundee. I can only think of one other boxing person who logged in as many successful years at the top of their (boxing) profession, and that would be Herman Taylor of Philadelphia who started working for Jack McGuigan, promoter of the National A.C. in Phila., in 1901 and becoming a promoter himself in 1912 until 1975.
Chris and Herman Taylor were well acquainted and did a lot of business with each other over the years. What I wouldn't give to hear the negotiations between these two before a deal was finalized.
Chris and Herman Taylor were well acquainted and did a lot of business with each other over the years. What I wouldn't give to hear the negotiations between these two before a deal was finalized.
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
Is anybody else upset as me that Il Duce hijacked this thread by introducing his fictitious nonsense?
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
I grew up in Florida. I gradUated from North Miami beach Senior High School. I used to go to Chris Dundee promoted wrestling matches at the Miami Beach Convention Center. My fondest moment is watching the Brisco brothers defeat the Funk Brothers from front row seats but I digress... Nothing in the fiction/faction that you have written substantiates your absolutely absurd claim that Muhammad Ali wasn't temporarily blinded during his first match with Sonny Liston.Il Duce wrote:ThatOne wrote:Is anybody else upset as me that Il Duce hijacked this thread by introducing his fictitious nonsense?
Yea, Chris Dundee would never promote something that wasn't ..........'Real'
Love that 6-Man Tag Team Match.........
And let me see,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Gorgeous George...............= Cassius Clay....
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
The liniment they applied to Sonny's eyes to stop the river of blood that was caused by the GOAT;s jabs!Il Duce wrote:That One,,,,,,,,,,
What kind of 'liniment' was in Cassius Clay's eyes again.............That 'delayed action solution'........
Or was it the 'regular' product.
Ain't no 'liniment' on this Planet that takes 3-Minutes to start burning the 'eyes'.
Unless your,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Cassius Clay
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Ambling Alp II
- Super Middleweight
- Posts: 15173
- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 18:31
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
These is always that risk when any topic that is remotely related to Ali is brought up. It's hard sometimes, but we just have to ignore the assholes who do this.ThatOne wrote:Is anybody else upset as me that Il Duce hijacked this thread by introducing his fictitious nonsense?
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
Why I am not surprised you are/were a devotee of midget wrestling?Il Duce wrote:Lord Littlebrook
'This is how we apply the liniment in the eye.'
Managed by........Chris Dundee
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
When Tony DeMarco and Tommy Collins fought for Sam Silverman believe me Sam wasn't neutral. Of course he wanted his great box office attractions to win.
When Art Aragon and Enrique Bolanos fought for Cal Eaton he sure as hell wasn't neutral.
Herman Taylor favored his box office star Gil Turner to beat any out of towner he boxed. Russell Peltz was pulling for Briscoe every time he boxed for him in Philly.
Probably the only time Mike Jacobs was neutral when Joe Louis fought was when he opposed Billy Conn.
Don't be absurd, "Il Duce,"almost all promoters favor their box office attractions to keep winning and their fans to keep paying to see them and contributing to the profits.
You ruined a nice thread about one of the "all time greats" in the history of boxing. What a ------ you are.
When Art Aragon and Enrique Bolanos fought for Cal Eaton he sure as hell wasn't neutral.
Herman Taylor favored his box office star Gil Turner to beat any out of towner he boxed. Russell Peltz was pulling for Briscoe every time he boxed for him in Philly.
Probably the only time Mike Jacobs was neutral when Joe Louis fought was when he opposed Billy Conn.
Don't be absurd, "Il Duce,"almost all promoters favor their box office attractions to keep winning and their fans to keep paying to see them and contributing to the profits.
You ruined a nice thread about one of the "all time greats" in the history of boxing. What a ------ you are.
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
pbchron wrote:When Tony DeMarco and Tommy Collins fought for Sam Silverman believe me Sam wasn't neutral. Of course he wanted his great box office attractions to win.
When Art Aragon and Enrique Bolanos fought for Cal Eaton he sure as hell wasn't neutral.
Herman Taylor favored his box office star Gil Turner to beat any out of towner he boxed. Russell Peltz was pulling for Briscoe every time he boxed for him in Philly.
Probably the only time Mike Jacobs was neutral when Joe Louis fought was when he opposed Billy Conn.
Don't be absurd, "Il Duce,"almost all promoters favor their box office attractions to keep winning and their fans to keep paying to see them and contributing to the profits.
You ruined a nice thread about one of the "all time greats" in the history of boxing. What a ------ you are.
:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
Chris was involved in all sorts of promotions. Boxing was his main love but wrestling paid the bills because all wrestling shows were profitable and all boxing cards were not. I have seen wrestlers curse and attack each other with venom in the ring and the following morning both were having breakfast with Chris, got paid and left together in a station wagon.
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
Those were much more innocent times. My friend and I stayed after the matches and got a ride home from Tim Woods.enrique wrote:Chris was involved in all sorts of promotions. Boxing was his main love but wrestling paid the bills because all wrestling shows were profitable and all boxing cards were not. I have seen wrestlers curse and attack each other with venom in the ring and the following morning both were having breakfast with Chris, got paid and left together in a station wagon.
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
Il Duce wrote: Usually Fight Promoters are not supposed to take sides
Duchess, I realise you have no idea how boxing works and that you live in a fantasy world, but this is your daftest quote so far.
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Ambling Alp II
- Super Middleweight
- Posts: 15173
- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 18:31
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
Guys like them did a lot for boxing. Promoters like them put together a lot of good matchups over the years. You don't see much of that anymore.pbchron wrote:What a tremendous article Enrique Espinosa wrote on Chris Dundee. I can only think of one other boxing person who logged in as many successful years at the top of their (boxing) profession, and that would be Herman Taylor of Philadelphia who started working for Jack McGuigan, promoter of the National A.C. in Phila., in 1901 and becoming a promoter himself in 1912 until 1975.
Chris and Herman Taylor were well acquainted and did a lot of business with each other over the years. What I wouldn't give to hear the negotiations between these two before a deal was finalized.
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
Wtf?? Enjoying some brilliant articles on dundee and it starts with the Il Duce cassius clay bs again! Really beginning to put me off this site..:-(
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Ambling Alp II
- Super Middleweight
- Posts: 15173
- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 18:31
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
I know, it sucks. I was trying to restart the thread, hoping that we could move on from his BS.
I think Chris Dundee was an interesting figure in boxing. The "Regional promoters like him, Taylor, Don Chagrin, Aileen Eaton,George Parnassus, Sam Silverman etc. really helped the sport by putting together good matches.
I think Chris Dundee was an interesting figure in boxing. The "Regional promoters like him, Taylor, Don Chagrin, Aileen Eaton,George Parnassus, Sam Silverman etc. really helped the sport by putting together good matches.
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
evrenb wrote:Wtf?? Enjoying some brilliant articles on dundee and it starts with the Il Duce cassius clay bs again! Really beginning to put me off this site..:-(
He can't help himself. The poor chap bootstraps Clay/Ali into every topic.
Re: CHRIS DUNDEE
If we all put him on ignore he may go away.ThatOne wrote:evrenb wrote:Wtf?? Enjoying some brilliant articles on dundee and it starts with the Il Duce cassius clay bs again! Really beginning to put me off this site..:-(
He can't help himself. The poor chap bootstraps Clay/Ali into every topic.
I will put him on ignore now as I have been guilty of encouraging his stupid posts.
I suggest the rest of you think about doing the same.