Why Is It......

[keithmoonhangover]

......that according to some people, Duran's prime/peak ended immediately after the first Leonard fight, presumably because his heart wasn't in it and he stopped training properly.

But the same people will not entertain that Tyson's prime/peak ended after the Spinks fight, when his heart wasn't in it and he didn't train properly.

Strange.

[ThatOne]

......that according to some people, Duran's prime/peak ended immediately after the first Leonard fight, presumably because his heart wasn't in it and he stopped training properly.

But the same people will not entertain that Tyson's prime/peak ended after the Spinks fight, when his heart wasn't in it and he didn't train properly.

Strange.

That's a good question, no, a great one.

BTW, don't forget to watch the No mas special on ESPN tonight.

[keithmoonhangover]

......that according to some people, Duran's prime/peak ended immediately after the first Leonard fight, presumably because his heart wasn't in it and he stopped training properly.

But the same people will not entertain that Tyson's prime/peak ended after the Spinks fight, when his heart wasn't in it and he didn't train properly.

Strange.

That's a good question, no, a great one.

BTW, don't want forget to watch the No mas special on ESPN tonight.

I'm in the UK, but I have ESPN, so it might be on.

[ThatOne]

......that according to some people, Duran's prime/peak ended immediately after the first Leonard fight, presumably because his heart wasn't in it and he stopped training properly.

But the same people will not entertain that Tyson's prime/peak ended after the Spinks fight, when his heart wasn't in it and he didn't train properly.

Strange.

That's a good question, no, a great one.

BTW, don't want forget to watch the No mas special on ESPN tonight.

I'm in the UK, but I have ESPN, so it might be on.

Roberto Duran says he didn’t actually say ‘No Mas’

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/10/roberto ... ay-no-mas/

[stevedoc]

......that according to some people, Duran's prime/peak ended immediately after the first Leonard fight, presumably because his heart wasn't in it and he stopped training properly.

But the same people will not entertain that Tyson's prime/peak ended after the Spinks fight, when his heart wasn't in it and he didn't train properly.

Strange.

i really think tyson gets underrated by many now mainly people under 35 who never see a prime tyson , the tyson that beat spinks would be a problem for any fighter ever including Ali . once cus died he started to go down hill . tyson wasn't tyson by the time he fought ruddock he had just become a puncher with out his head movement or combinations .

[keithmoonhangover]

Roberto Duran says he didn’t actually say ‘No Mas’

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/10/roberto ... ay-no-mas/

I follow SRL on Facebook, so I'd read about that. It's amazing how these things take on a life of their own.

[p4p1]

......that according to some people, Duran's prime/peak ended immediately after the first Leonard fight, presumably because his heart wasn't in it and he stopped training properly.

But the same people will not entertain that Tyson's prime/peak ended after the Spinks fight, when his heart wasn't in it and he didn't train properly.

Strange.

Duran had been a world champion for 8 years already and was 29, had already had over 70 fights and was fighting above his best weight, Tyson was 24, had been champion for 4 years and had 35 fights, big difference.

[ThatOne]

Roberto Duran says he didn’t actually say ‘No Mas’

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/10/roberto ... ay-no-mas/

I follow SRL on Facebook, so I'd read about that. It's amazing how these things take on a life of their own.

Wow... He's one of my favorite fighters. I don't want to take anything away from Manos de Piedra but Ray Charles Leonard was just better.

[p4p1]

......that according to some people, Duran's prime/peak ended immediately after the first Leonard fight, presumably because his heart wasn't in it and he stopped training properly.

But the same people will not entertain that Tyson's prime/peak ended after the Spinks fight, when his heart wasn't in it and he didn't train properly.

Strange.

i really think tyson gets underrated by many now mainly people under 35 who never see a prime tyson , the tyson that beat spinks would be a problem for any fighter ever including Ali . once cus died he started to go down hill . tyson wasn't tyson by the time he fought ruddock he had just become a puncher with out his head movement or combinations .

Cus died when he was 18 or 19, it was Jacobs dying that seemed to spell the end more.

[ThatOne]

......that according to some people, Duran's prime/peak ended immediately after the first Leonard fight, presumably because his heart wasn't in it and he stopped training properly.

But the same people will not entertain that Tyson's prime/peak ended after the Spinks fight, when his heart wasn't in it and he didn't train properly.

Strange.

Duran had been a world champion for 8 years already and was 29, had already had over 70 fights and was fighting above his best weight, Tyson was 24, had been champion for 4 years and had 35 fights, big difference.

Duran had the better career but Tyson was a force of nature.

[keithmoonhangover]

......that according to some people, Duran's prime/peak ended immediately after the first Leonard fight, presumably because his heart wasn't in it and he stopped training properly.

But the same people will not entertain that Tyson's prime/peak ended after the Spinks fight, when his heart wasn't in it and he didn't train properly.

Strange.

Duran had been a world champion for 8 years already and was 29, had already had over 70 fights and was fighting above his best weight, Tyson was 24, had been champion for 4 years and had 35 fights, big difference.

Age and amount of fights don't mean anything when discussing someone's peak, because they are different people with different careers.

[ThatOne]

Worth a listen re the fight:

http://www.stationcaster.com/player_ski ... &f=1974973

[p4p1]

......that according to some people, Duran's prime/peak ended immediately after the first Leonard fight, presumably because his heart wasn't in it and he stopped training properly.

But the same people will not entertain that Tyson's prime/peak ended after the Spinks fight, when his heart wasn't in it and he didn't train properly.

Strange.

Duran had been a world champion for 8 years already and was 29, had already had over 70 fights and was fighting above his best weight, Tyson was 24, had been champion for 4 years and had 35 fights, big difference.

Age and amount of fights don't mean anything when discussing someone's peak, because they are different people with different careers.

Pretty hard to say a 23 year old is past his prime though, sure it was the best we ever saw for him but it shouldn't have been. I guess I agree with you as around the Spinks fight was his prime but he shouldn't be given the 'passes' for post prime losses like Duran is as he should of still had more to offer.

[stevedoc]

......that according to some people, Duran's prime/peak ended immediately after the first Leonard fight, presumably because his heart wasn't in it and he stopped training properly.

But the same people will not entertain that Tyson's prime/peak ended after the Spinks fight, when his heart wasn't in it and he didn't train properly.

Strange.

i really think tyson gets underrated by many now mainly people under 35 who never see a prime tyson , the tyson that beat spinks would be a problem for any fighter ever including Ali . once cus died he started to go down hill . tyson wasn't tyson by the time he fought ruddock he had just become a puncher with out his head movement or combinations .

Cus died when he was 18 or 19, it was Jacobs dying that seemed to spell the end more.

i know that it was more noticeable later when jim jacobs died and with rooney leaving but i think the slip started the day cus died ,tyson really looked up to cus and he wanted to please him like a child with their dad and that can be a very powerful reason to do well

[keithmoonhangover]

Pretty hard to say a 23 year old is past his prime though, sure it was the best we ever saw for him but it shouldn't have been. I guess I agree with you as around the Spinks fight was his prime but he shouldn't be given the 'passes' for post prime losses like Duran is as he should of still had more to offer.

I don't think he gets a pass for the Douglas fight and nor does he deserve one. I happen to think that the Tyson who beat Spinks or Holmes would have knocked Buster out inside three rounds.

I don't think Duran deserves a pass for the No Mas fight either.

[p4p1]

i really think tyson gets underrated by many now mainly people under 35 who never see a prime tyson , the tyson that beat spinks would be a problem for any fighter ever including Ali . once cus died he started to go down hill . tyson wasn't tyson by the time he fought ruddock he had just become a puncher with out his head movement or combinations .

Cus died when he was 18 or 19, it was Jacobs dying that seemed to spell the end more.

i know that it was more noticeable later when jim jacobs died and with rooney leaving but i think the slip started the day cus died ,tyson really looked up to cus and he wanted to please him like a child with their dad and that can be a very powerful reason to do well

Pretty hard to day that when he achieved after Cus died though, it is hard to view it as the beginning of the end because it was only the start. It seems Cus put things in place to protect Tyson in case he died but after Jacobs died it fell apart and King was able to have a huge influence on Tyson. Tyson's reason to succeed other than personal gain/ambition was to honour Cus' memory and the belief he had in Tyson and believe me that is a massive motivator probably stronger than trying to make your father figure proud.

[p4p1]

Pretty hard to say a 23 year old is past his prime though, sure it was the best we ever saw for him but it shouldn't have been. I guess I agree with you as around the Spinks fight was his prime but he shouldn't be given the 'passes' for post prime losses like Duran is as he should of still had more to offer.

I don't think he gets a pass for the Douglas fight and nor does he deserve one. I happen to think that the Tyson who beat Spinks or Holmes would have knocked Buster out inside three rounds.

I don't think Duran deserves a pass for the No Mas fight either.

But he does get a kind of pass because the only reason most people give for the loss is Tyson was past prime/didn't train properly/had the wrong people around him etc. and then people say well the Tyson of the Spinks fight would of knocked Douglas out. Similar things can be said of Douglas as of Tyson the way his career panned out. His lack of focus was also the reason for his downfall.

[stevedoc]

i know that it was more noticeable later when jim jacobs died and with rooney leaving but i think the slip started the day cus died ,tyson really looked up to cus and he wanted to please him like a child with their dad and that can be a very powerful reason to do well[/quote]
Pretty hard to day that when he achieved after Cus died though, it is hard to view it as the beginning of the end because it was only the start. It seems Cus put things in place to protect Tyson in case he died but after Jacobs died it fell apart and King was able to have a huge influence on Tyson. Tyson's reason to succeed other than personal gain/ambition was to honour Cus' memory and the belief he had in Tyson and believe me that is a massive motivator probably stronger than trying to make your father figure proud.[/quote]

you're right about tyson wanting to honour cus , but that didn't last for to long so i still feel cus dying was the start of the down fall maybe not instantly but that was the reason .

[keithmoonhangover]

Pretty hard to say a 23 year old is past his prime though, sure it was the best we ever saw for him but it shouldn't have been. I guess I agree with you as around the Spinks fight was his prime but he shouldn't be given the 'passes' for post prime losses like Duran is as he should of still had more to offer.

I don't think he gets a pass for the Douglas fight and nor does he deserve one. I happen to think that the Tyson who beat Spinks or Holmes would have knocked Buster out inside three rounds.

I don't think Duran deserves a pass for the No Mas fight either.

But he does get a kind of pass because the only reason most people give for the loss is Tyson was past prime/didn't train properly/had the wrong people around him etc. and then people say well the Tyson of the Spinks fight would of knocked Douglas out. Similar things can be said of Douglas as of Tyson the way his career panned out. His lack of focus was also the reason for his downfall.

But Focus is part of it. I do find it strange that some fights, like Witherspoon losing in a round to Bonecrusher get a pass, because 'Spoon's heart wasn't in it. Where other fights don't.

[p4p1]

i know that it was more noticeable later when jim jacobs died and with rooney leaving but i think the slip started the day cus died ,tyson really looked up to cus and he wanted to please him like a child with their dad and that can be a very powerful reason to do well

Pretty hard to day that when he achieved after Cus died though, it is hard to view it as the beginning of the end because it was only the start. It seems Cus put things in place to protect Tyson in case he died but after Jacobs died it fell apart and King was able to have a huge influence on Tyson. Tyson's reason to succeed other than personal gain/ambition was to honour Cus' memory and the belief he had in Tyson and believe me that is a massive motivator probably stronger than trying to make your father figure proud.[/quote]

you're right about tyson wanting to honour cus , but that didn't last for to long so i still feel cus dying was the start of the down fall maybe not instantly but that was the reason .[/quote]
I'm sure it had an effect and was probably the first thing that happened in the big picture that spelled the end for Tyson. I am sure Cus would of kept the vultures away from Tyson as would have Jacobs but it didn't work out and we probably misses some amazing performances. fornicate this just makes me remember what a pudendum King is.

[p4p1]

I don't think he gets a pass for the Douglas fight and nor does he deserve one. I happen to think that the Tyson who beat Spinks or Holmes would have knocked Buster out inside three rounds.

I don't think Duran deserves a pass for the No Mas fight either.

But he does get a kind of pass because the only reason most people give for the loss is Tyson was past prime/didn't train properly/had the wrong people around him etc. and then people say well the Tyson of the Spinks fight would of knocked Douglas out. Similar things can be said of Douglas as of Tyson the way his career panned out. His lack of focus was also the reason for his downfall.

But Focus is part of it. I do find it strange that some fights, like Witherspoon losing in a round to Bonecrusher get a pass, because 'Spoon's heart wasn't in it. Where other fights don't.

I just wonder if that version of Douglas could of been an ATG he looked amazing that night and I don't think he gets enough credit for the performance he put on. It's a shame that a few of the most talented guys of the late 80s & 90s seemed to be the least committed.

[stevedoc]

i know that it was more noticeable later when jim jacobs died and with rooney leaving but i think the slip started the day cus died ,tyson really looked up to cus and he wanted to please him like a child with their dad and that can be a very powerful reason to do well

Pretty hard to day that when he achieved after Cus died though, it is hard to view it as the beginning of the end because it was only the start. It seems Cus put things in place to protect Tyson in case he died but after Jacobs died it fell apart and King was able to have a huge influence on Tyson. Tyson's reason to succeed other than personal gain/ambition was to honour Cus' memory and the belief he had in Tyson and believe me that is a massive motivator probably stronger than trying to make your father figure proud.

you're right about tyson wanting to honour cus , but that didn't last for to long so i still feel cus dying was the start of the down fall maybe not instantly but that was the reason .[/quote]
I'm sure it had an effect and was probably the first thing that happened in the big picture that spelled the end for Tyson. I am sure Cus would of kept the vultures away from Tyson as would have Jacobs but it didn't work out and we probably misses some amazing performances. eff this just makes me remember what a pudendum King is.[/quote]

it's such a shame that cus didn't last 5 more years as fighters like tyson don't come around to often and if we could of had 5 more years of the real tyson that would of been amazing . i see tim witherspoon a month ago at a show i had a drink with him and he said that don king agreed a purse of usd$3,000,000 to fight bruno but after king took his cut and expensives he got $90,000 ..what a con man ....

[p4p1]

i know that it was more noticeable later when jim jacobs died and with rooney leaving but i think the slip started the day cus died ,tyson really looked up to cus and he wanted to please him like a child with their dad and that can be a very powerful reason to do well

Pretty hard to day that when he achieved after Cus died though, it is hard to view it as the beginning of the end because it was only the start. It seems Cus put things in place to protect Tyson in case he died but after Jacobs died it fell apart and King was able to have a huge influence on Tyson. Tyson's reason to succeed other than personal gain/ambition was to honour Cus' memory and the belief he had in Tyson and believe me that is a massive motivator probably stronger than trying to make your father figure proud.

you're right about tyson wanting to honour cus , but that didn't last for to long so i still feel cus dying was the start of the down fall maybe not instantly but that was the reason .

I'm sure it had an effect and was probably the first thing that happened in the big picture that spelled the end for Tyson. I am sure Cus would of kept the vultures away from Tyson as would have Jacobs but it didn't work out and we probably misses some amazing performances. eff this just makes me remember what a pudendum King is.[/quote]

it's such a shame that cus didn't last 5 more years as fighters like tyson don't come around to often and if we could of had 5 more years of the real tyson that would of been amazing . i see tim witherspoon a month ago at a show i had a drink with him and he said that don king agreed a purse of usd$3,000,000 to fight bruno but after king took his cut and expensives he got $90,000 ..what a con man .... [/quote]
Yep King was a master of taking advantage of uneducated boxers.

[keithmoonhangover]

i see tim witherspoon a month ago at a show i had a drink with him and he said that don king agreed a purse of usd$3,000,000 to fight bruno but after king took his cut and expensives he got $90,000 ..what a con man ....

Didn't Tim win a lawsuit against King years later?

[stevedoc]

i see tim witherspoon a month ago at a show i had a drink with him and he said that don king agreed a purse of usd$3,000,000 to fight bruno but after king took his cut and expensives he got $90,000 ..what a con man ....

Didn't Tim win a lawsuit against King years later?

yeah i was a bit pissed but he said he was awarded 1.300,000 and he got $900,000 off king ,