Oakland Bily Harms

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 26 Apr 2004, 03:19

We have an Oakland Billy Harms (given as born in England but no fights there) and also a Billy Harms (South Africa). I think these are the same fighter. I have come across the South African Billy Harms fighting in Australia. He is described as being born in South Africa but having made his name fighting in the United States. The last entry we have for Oakland Billy Harms is a 1930 fight in Australia which I will check in a local newspaper but I think there is little, if any doubt, they are the same fighter.

Ric · Post by **Ric** » 26 Apr 2004, 10:36

If the one fits in the other's schedule/record, you are probably correct, Colin.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 26 Apr 2004, 17:29

It looks as though it does but I will go to the Sydney papers (got it from Brisbane paper) and check all the Australain fights before I changeanything.

Luckett · Post by **Luckett** » 15 May 2004, 21:02

Billy Harms was a South African who fought extensively in the western United States (1922-27), Australia(1927-30), and completed his career in South Africa (1930-31).

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 16 May 2004, 18:28

Yes I agree. I entered the biographical details as I did because our bio box gave him as British. I have still to establish that the Oakland Billy Harms and the Billy Harms that fought in Australia in 1930 are the one and the same. It would seem logical that they are except for the fact that in 1930 he was significantly lighter, presuming the weights in the paper are correct, than he was in his previous Ausrtralian fights.

Luckett · Post by **Luckett** » 17 May 2004, 22:51

Harms's history is given on pages 234-235 of Chris Greyvenstein's book, THE FIGHTERS. Indeed, he did fight in the United States, Australia, and South Africa. He was a sailor and, according to Greyvenstein, also had fights in Mexico, Wales, England, India, New Zealand, and Canada. I know of one fight for him in New Zealand, and another in Canada, but haven't traced any fights for him in India, Wales, or Mexico.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 18 May 2004, 22:24

Great. We have Oakland Billy Harms, a South African, and then another Billy Harms with three fights, one in Australia in 1929 (against Jack Carroll), and then one on South Africa in 1930 and 1931, both against an Eddie Maguire. Are these fights listed in your reference under the man we call Oakland Billy Harms ? That is, is there only one Billy Harms ? Is he listed as Oakland Billy Harms in your reference ?

Luckett · Post by **Luckett** » 20 May 2004, 00:13

No. Apparently you misunderstood me. THE FIGHTERS is a history of South African boxing written by a well known South African sportswriter, Chris Greyvenstein. Naturally he does not refer to him as "Oakland Billy Harms." A name like "Oakland Billy Harms" is the sort of tag a manager would give a boxer in those days, tring to get fans in the Bay area to come out and pay to see his fights. (IMO, most nicknames in boxing were hatched up for reasons such as these and are better off forgotten.) He doesn't give Harms's record, just a fairly brief description of his career.

I compiled Harms's record quite a long time ago, with help from John Hogg of Australia and Jacques Verster of South Africa. I haven't looked at his record on BoxRec, but Ric Kilmer may have found additional fights for him. There is no doubt that there was only one Billy Harms; all the parts of his record fit nicely together.

Ric · Post by **Ric** » 20 May 2004, 00:55

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=078883

Matt located a number of Harms's Bay Area bouts before Harms moved to the Puget Sound area. I put his hometown as Everett, WA, USA, because most of the fights he had in the area listed Everett as his hometown. He fought in this area for three years. (There was no mention in these papers, as I recall, that he was a sailor. But it's been a few years since I located those bouts.)
He probably had no real "home town," however, due to his extensive travels.

Matt · Post by **Matt** » 20 May 2004, 01:19

From the Oregonian before his appearance against Tiger Thomas on March 22, 1927, which was Joe Waterman's last show of his first stint in Portland.

"Though he has the soubriquet of Oakland Billy Harms," he has never fought in Oakland. He was born in Johannesburg, South Africa. His manager is Kelly Kent ...."

The article mentioned that he was 24 years old, having started boxing in 1920, before taking a year off and returning as a Middleweight. This was probably the gap that saw him come to the Bay Area in 1921.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 21 May 2004, 00:50

So do we leave it with Oakland Billy Harms and another (slightly later but another South African) Billy Harms or do we join the two records. The thing that worries me about doing that is that this second fighters weight for the 1929 fight in Australia is given as 149 (in two papers, although both might use the one source) while Oakland Billy in Australia was high 150s and even one at 164. Unlikely that he would have lost that much weight. I tend to think the 149 is probably incorrect.

Ric · Post by **Ric** » 21 May 2004, 01:31

Luckett:
Please compare the record you--with the assistance of John Hogg and Jacques Verster--put together some time ago with the Harms's record Colin, Matt and I have pieced together so far:
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=078883

Please add any other bouts you have documented.

Matt · Post by **Matt** » 21 May 2004, 02:01

What kind of opponent is he fighting? If he is fighting fighters at about his level, and not just starting off in prelims, it's probably the same guy. Papers are wrong sometimes on weights. I can think of an example of the top of my head (Al Mustola) where two sources have had the wrong weight. 149 and 156 is not that extreme of a difference.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 22 May 2004, 04:34

It was a main event bout.
I think it probably is the same fighter but will leave it as it is until I can get into the main library in Sydney and check a sporting paper called 'The Referee'. I may also be able to get the Cape Town papers for his 1930 and 1931 fight in South Africa.