Il Duce's ~ "Certified '5' Greatest Heavyweight Champions"

[BoxBuzz]

Buzz's rapid response fact updating service:

Regarded by some as 'possibly' the physically strongest of all Heavyweight Champions.

One Boxing Pundit of his time, clearly stated on one occasion that he could be 'out-boxed', but could not be beaten.

[Seamus]

I'm cool with any list that includes Ali and doesn't include Johnson, Liston, and Marciano.

[BoxBuzz]

Then he came out of retirement....and Jack Johnson sort of schooled him.

At their primes Jack would have schooled him less.

By the way was it his choice to come back after he retired, based on his free will ? You know...like being responsible for his own actions?

Or was it a government program that required him to come out of retirement to face Jack?

[BoxBuzz]

I think, and you know

Well, you're just flattering me now. I told you, no special consideration here.

So it WAS sort of like "ObamaBox". He had to do it...or he would be out some money?

So by taking the fight he did get some money I take it.

[BoxBuzz]

Hmm sounds like an excuse. Jack was good, and might have made it quite competitive at mutual peaks. I thought you told me that champions will lie rather than tell the truth when the chips are down Now you are saying that this champion always told the truth? Which is it?...do champions lie or tell the truth? Ok...I'm just funnin' with ya.

Now don't be all down on Jack Johnson, just because he made some socially unacceptable (at the time) choices regarding his womanizing. I bet you've played fast and loose with the ladies a time or two yourself.

Now for the record.....Jack cleaned his clock, beat him something fierce. That's Father time at work, the all time undisputed champ.

[BoxBuzz]

Sound reasonable.....you done good this time. However...each at their peak, this is no cake walk for either.

[Robinson]

We all know that in his prime he would never have fought Johnson any how
nor any other coloured fighters.

Its interesting when some one claims that they have no one else to fight
there are always guys on this Earth ready to fight you and when you
isolate the criteria of those allowed to fight you it tends to shorten any
list.

We are all entitled to opinions and personally as far as I am concerned when
I look at greats and 'scout' them. I tend to by pass the words and boasts
surrounding them and look at the footage available and the record itself
and well... Jeffries is not a guy who I tend to rate as high as many others.

Tough and talented big man of his time but I think legend surrounds
him as much as crediblity does.

[BoxBuzz]

If I've got money on the line...I would back Jack.

[Robinson]

I will say one thing to get back into shape, drop
all that weight and to challenge the HW champion of the
World after spending so many years as a farmer is a
testament to Jeffries will and determination.

But plenty of over determined people have been bested
in combat but talented under trainers all too often and
is part of the realities of the combat sports.

[gilgamesh]

We all know that in his prime he would never have fought Johnson any how
nor any other coloured fighters.

Its interesting when some one claims that they have no one else to fight
there are always guys on this Earth ready to fight you and when you
isolate the criteria of those allowed to fight you it tends to shorten any
list.

We are all entitled to opinions and personally as far as I am concerned when
I look at greats and 'scout' them. I tend to by pass the words and boasts
surrounding them and look at the footage available and the record itself
and well... Jeffries is not a guy who I tend to rate as high as many others.

Tough and talented big man of his time but I think legend surrounds
him as much as crediblity does.

Agreed I think he'd be beaten by several Contenders and Champions that came along since his time.

[Robinson]

I think that often.
I think that a lot about many other legends
as well..though I dare not speak their names aloud
in the sacred church halls of Boxing legendom
where certain dogmas are customary.

Bert Sugars ghost would pulverise me should I dare
utter such blasphemy.

[gilgamesh]

I think that often.
I think that a lot about many other legends
as well..though I dare not speak their names aloud
in the sacred church halls of Boxing legendom
where certain dogmas are customary.

Bert Sugars ghost would pulverise me should I dare
utter such blasphemy.

I think it a lot about many boxing legends in potential matchups myself...have no fear brother this is a safe haven to speak your mind as you will.

[Robinson]

Oh I have spoken such words often in the past.

I think some non fighters who proclaim themselves as
experts derive their degrees from reading the words of
other non athletes and in some ways become academic
experts on human combatives...even going so far as
to question and deride the thoughts and words of actual
combatants based solely upon the recycling of the cliches
that they may have heard or read.

You hear this with some commentators or read this in words
from 'experts.'.

Here is how I see if ... a fighter sees a fight and other fighters
one way. Non fighters see it another. When one has experienced
both they can see both perspectives.

And like you, you no doubt can only hear about how on a
diet of mutton broth and boiled water and cabbage a big
burly farm hand from a frontier town could easily man handle
a modern day professional fighter because he knows long forgotten
secrets to the clinch or knows how to slap and parry with
open mitts a certain way.

Or the fact that fights went for 100 rounds this some how eludes
that fighters from an age had better stamina. All the while forgetting
that most men can easily walk 10km but struggle to sprint 100m.

[BoxBuzz]

When two good and talented men meet each other in the ring, and fists begin to collide with noggins and referees get into it, and the judges get off kilter....it's quite often...if not ALWAYS a bit of a loose cannon affair. Odds be damned and most anything can happen.

Some examples:

Moore Durelle
Braddock Baer
Mike and Buster
Ali and Spinks
Cervantes Benitez
Hagler Hearns
Lyle Foreman
Benn Mclellan
Duran Leonard X2
Liston Martin
Chavez Whitaker

Who could honestly say they could predict the "HOW" of any of those.

Much of boxing history is happenstance.

[Robinson]

That is the beauty of combat sports is that it is a case of
best guessing.

But those close to the camps usually have a good idea.

When you are around a fighter in prep you can some times
develop a feeling as to how he would do in the bout and I
suspect in some of those mentioned, people close to the
'favourite' had an educated instinct that something may occur.

Say those in Tysons, Baers or Ali's camp as an example.

And in the other cases you are dealing with the top one percent
in their field and contrary to what odds makers and pundits claim
whenever the upper echelon meet no matter who the favourites are
you are still dealing with top tier talents and what you get is
usually what you want.

Its when say a prime fighter who is twenty fights in takes on an
absolute novice and gets bested by him that is when you think
something is either afoot or Rocky is a good story to watch and
realise.

This is why one loves the combat sports and why no fighter
ever doubts his chances.

You can walk into any gym and approach a real fighter, regardless
of his record and can ask him...would you fight and beat who ever
is the top man in their weight division and any one that is an actual
fighter would say yes...and ask to take it. That is what separates
a fighter from a athlete, performer or a fly by nighter.

That is why i some times switch off when I hear non fighters proclaim
that tyson beat near all of his opponents through intimidation.
What does that even mean ? Hell you are climbing through the ropes
to fight a human weapon before a World audience....intimidation is something
you have very low on your list.

[orbtastic]

With regards to his statement that "nobody came close to beating me", I think both Fitz and Corbett might have something to say about that?

[BoxBuzz]

Robinson...you framed it well.....when things "stay in the box" you can almost always predict the winner. But all it takes is one moment where the underdog has a lucky break to turn it all around.

No odds on favorite in a ring with a certified competitive opponent is more than a nanosecond away from having the tables turned. How about Klitschko -Byrd? There's a classic unforseen unwinding.

[BoxBuzz]

Certified? Can you produce the paperwork?

[raylawpc]

Jim Jeffries never said Jack Munroe knocked him down. That's because it never happened. The knock down story was the result of Munroe's manager sending out wire reports after the exhibition claiming Munroe knocked down the champion.

I have seven clippings in my files – ringside reports from the Butte Miner and the Butte Inter-Mountain, and none of them report Jeff being knocked down, or even slipping to his knees, during the exhibition. Munroe’s goal was to stay four-rounds and win $500, and he succeeded against a Jeffries both newspapers report was “hog fat.”

I don’t have the capacity to scan articles, but I have copied this excerpt from the Butte Miner, page 12/27/1902 at page 12, which addresses the allegation made in wire reports that Munroe dominated Jeffries or knocked him down:

“. . .It is even stated by some of the eastern papers that have been coming in during the last two days that Munroe had Jeffries ‘going;’ also that he sent Jeffries to his knees. The reports make it appear that Munroe was the equal a week ago tonight of Jeffries.

These are not the facts of the case. At no time did Munroe have the champion going, or anything like it. . .”

The ringside reports all agree that Jeffries went into the exhibition thinking he had an easy bout. But Munroe had trained hard for the exhibition and showed up in great shape. These papers say Jeffries “let Munroe down easy” in the first round – apparently because Bob Fitzsimmons, with whom Jeff was touring, had stopped his local opponent quickly and he wanted to give the fans a show. Munroe, however, did well in the second round, landed several punches, and was a “veritable surprise” to Jeffries.

Jeffries came out in the third round looking to stop Munroe and, in fact, sent Munroe to his knees “several times.” Munroe “took advantage of the count and rested up.” The Miner says that Jeffries had Munroe nearly out at the end of the third, but he was revived by his corner between rounds and came out for the fourth completely recovered.

Jeffries was “puffing like a quarter horse” in the fourth, and tried to take Munroe out with one “sledgehammer” punch. But “Munroe was playing for time and hugged the big fellow until shaken off.” The fighters were exchanging punches at the bell.

So, again . . . Munroe never dropped Jeffries. But Munroe had a darned good press agent who got the word out that he did.

[drunkenpiper36]

An excellent champion and symbol of strength and courage. I personally don't rank him that high, given that his career contains so few " recorded" professional fights, and that his best wins were over past prime opposition. But his resume commands a great deal of respect. No doubt about it.

[BoxBuzz]

I had been waiting for a counter to this, because what Raylaw has brought up, is what I thought to be true.

Ok Il Duce...no comment on the Munroe info?

Un-flippin-believable.

Fiction writers.......not all bad....but just how useful in this forum?...especially if they won't own up to either they are spinning fiction, giving expression to highly personal opinions, or refuse owning up to their lack of research.

[BoxBuzz]

Dr. Box Buzz

All you have to do is read what Jack Munroe's Manager {Clark Bell} said about the Butte, Montana bout.

James J. Jeffries was fighting out of his crouch, and was 'fat' and breathing like a 'stuck' Hog by the end of Round 3.

Jack Munroe changed his style from low to high in Round 4, and loaded up with his 'Smasher'. He timed Jeffries coming in,
who had also dropped his heavy arms from being tired, and Munroe landed one on the 'point-of-the-chin'.

In all fairness, 'Mister Jeff' was way out of shape, and played around in Rounds 1 and 2.

Under normal circumstances, Jeffries would have torn into Jack Munroe from the opening bell, and landed
one of his heavy blows.

Blather Blah and Yah tee Dah.

You are missing my point......hugely......

My point......yes my point...you know the purpose and sole reason for my comment.....was exactly and precisely the following.

The preponderance of the evidence supports Raylaw's statement...and NOT yours.

Would you agree? If so...you seem to wander forward as if the weight of evidence was in support of your statement.

Surely you can see that such is not the case.

....or can you?

[grevan]

Another perspective...

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... nge&page=1

"As to the story that Munroe knocked me to my knees, that is imagination."
- Jim Jeffries

[Giancarlo]

It never happened outside your crazy mind, Duchess.

[gilgamesh]

It never happened outside your crazy mind, Duchess.

I was just laughing to myself that he was quoting a newspaper called "The Anaconda Standard"