There's been a few threads recently discussing thrown / fixed fights (Clay-Liston, Witherspoon-Smith) and there are other fights like LaMotta-Fox.
Boxing has always had its shady characters linked closely to it, mob connections, and of course any sport where big money can be made is open to corruption. So was it common place in the older days, does it still go on as much today? Any other examples of either fights where someone has later admitted taking a dive or fights that you think are suspicious in their result.
When you think about it it's quite easy to intimidate a fighter into losing if you use the right people.
Corruption in boxing
Re: Corruption in boxing
There seems to be a fair about of evidence that in the teens and 20s black fighters in particular were sometimes forced to throw fights. And also that in the Frankie Corbo era the mob was involved in fixing some fights. Though I doubt we'll ever know for sure how common it was.
As for nowadays I would guess genuinely fixed fights are very rare. By that I mean fights where the losing fighter is in on the fix, usually for gambling purposes. Though I'm sure it depends on which part of the world you're in and the level of the fight.
On the other hand, we all know that what some people mistakenly refer to as 'fixed' fights, where the away fighter has very little chance due to the judges and or ref being biased to the other guy, are probably all too common.
As for nowadays I would guess genuinely fixed fights are very rare. By that I mean fights where the losing fighter is in on the fix, usually for gambling purposes. Though I'm sure it depends on which part of the world you're in and the level of the fight.
On the other hand, we all know that what some people mistakenly refer to as 'fixed' fights, where the away fighter has very little chance due to the judges and or ref being biased to the other guy, are probably all too common.
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Ambling Alp II
- Super Middleweight
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Re: Corruption in boxing
That is pretty much what I think. The boxers themselves are usually not part of the corruption.
Judges are probably involved much more often. You never know what to expect when waiting for the scorecards after a fight in which a lesser known fighter seemed to do enough to deserve the decision. Yet as often as not, he doesn't get the decision. This has happened many times over the years. Yet, how often does a big name get ripped off against lesser name? Almost never.
And of course, there is the corruption by the "governing bodies" as to who gets ranked and who gets title shots.
Judges are probably involved much more often. You never know what to expect when waiting for the scorecards after a fight in which a lesser known fighter seemed to do enough to deserve the decision. Yet as often as not, he doesn't get the decision. This has happened many times over the years. Yet, how often does a big name get ripped off against lesser name? Almost never.
And of course, there is the corruption by the "governing bodies" as to who gets ranked and who gets title shots.
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witherspoon
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 26 Jun 2005, 11:17
Re: Corruption in boxing
I'm pretty sure that nobody has implied that Witherspoon v Bonecrusher II was fixed, only that Witherspoon turned in a non-effort.
It's still a relevant topic of discussion for this thread. Bringing in Bonecrusher at a weeks notice was not a decision made with Tim's interests at heart.
And whatever was going through Witherspoon's mind when that first bell rang, I'd bet my last penny that the clean and pure nature of the professional fight game was not it.
It's still a relevant topic of discussion for this thread. Bringing in Bonecrusher at a weeks notice was not a decision made with Tim's interests at heart.
And whatever was going through Witherspoon's mind when that first bell rang, I'd bet my last penny that the clean and pure nature of the professional fight game was not it.
Re: Corruption in boxing
I know there are few instances in Boxing History where the fix was in and sh*t wound up not going according to plan.
Stanley Ketchel and Jack Johnson I believe had agreed to carry each other the full distance with Johnson winning so that they could have a lucrative rematch, but part way through the first round Ketchel decided that because Johnson had agreed to this...maybe it would be the perfect chance to try to level him and knock out the Heavyweight Champion.
He dropped Jack, Jack was none to happy and immediately leaped off the canvas knocking out Ketchel's teeth...and his senses to win by 1st round KO.
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Another supposedly fixed bout was when Battling Siki battled Georges Carpentier in 1922. It was agreed to that Siki would go down and stay down at some point in the fight....at any rate, Carpentier dropped Siki in the 6th and apparently Siki just got pissed off and got up and battered the hell out of Carpentier knocking him out and finishing the bout.
The referee, who was in on the fix panicked and didn't know what to do so he initially ruled that Siki was Disqualified, after the crowd went completely apesh*t because they knew he had committed no rule infractions and had simply knocked out Carpentier clean. The French Federation overruled the result and awarded the victory to Siki by KO 6.
Stanley Ketchel and Jack Johnson I believe had agreed to carry each other the full distance with Johnson winning so that they could have a lucrative rematch, but part way through the first round Ketchel decided that because Johnson had agreed to this...maybe it would be the perfect chance to try to level him and knock out the Heavyweight Champion.
He dropped Jack, Jack was none to happy and immediately leaped off the canvas knocking out Ketchel's teeth...and his senses to win by 1st round KO.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another supposedly fixed bout was when Battling Siki battled Georges Carpentier in 1922. It was agreed to that Siki would go down and stay down at some point in the fight....at any rate, Carpentier dropped Siki in the 6th and apparently Siki just got pissed off and got up and battered the hell out of Carpentier knocking him out and finishing the bout.
The referee, who was in on the fix panicked and didn't know what to do so he initially ruled that Siki was Disqualified, after the crowd went completely apesh*t because they knew he had committed no rule infractions and had simply knocked out Carpentier clean. The French Federation overruled the result and awarded the victory to Siki by KO 6.
Re: Corruption in boxing
Facts does not seem to bother you?!?!gilgamesh wrote:I know there are few instances in Boxing History where the fix was in and sh*t wound up not going according to plan.
Stanley Ketchel and Jack Johnson I believe had agreed to carry each other the full distance with Johnson winning so that they could have a lucrative rematch, but part way through the first round Ketchel decided that because Johnson had agreed to this...maybe it would be the perfect chance to try to level him and knock out the Heavyweight Champion.
He dropped Jack, Jack was none to happy and immediately leaped off the canvas knocking out Ketchel's teeth...and his senses to win by 1st round KO.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another supposedly fixed bout was when Battling Siki battled Georges Carpentier in 1922. It was agreed to that Siki would go down and stay down at some point in the fight....at any rate, Carpentier dropped Siki in the 6th and apparently Siki just got pissed off and got up and battered the hell out of Carpentier knocking him out and finishing the bout.
The referee, who was in on the fix panicked and didn't know what to do so he initially ruled that Siki was Disqualified, after the crowd went completely apesh*t because they knew he had committed no rule infractions and had simply knocked out Carpentier clean. The French Federation overruled the result and awarded the victory to Siki by KO 6.
Woller
Re: Corruption in boxing
???? The Two I mentioned are notorious Boxing Legends that have been repeated numerous times. They were both probably repeated 1000 or more times before I was born. I don't know 100% that they're fact no, but they're common stories nonetheless.Woller wrote:Facts does not seem to bother you?!?!gilgamesh wrote:I know there are few instances in Boxing History where the fix was in and sh*t wound up not going according to plan.
Stanley Ketchel and Jack Johnson I believe had agreed to carry each other the full distance with Johnson winning so that they could have a lucrative rematch, but part way through the first round Ketchel decided that because Johnson had agreed to this...maybe it would be the perfect chance to try to level him and knock out the Heavyweight Champion.
He dropped Jack, Jack was none to happy and immediately leaped off the canvas knocking out Ketchel's teeth...and his senses to win by 1st round KO.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another supposedly fixed bout was when Battling Siki battled Georges Carpentier in 1922. It was agreed to that Siki would go down and stay down at some point in the fight....at any rate, Carpentier dropped Siki in the 6th and apparently Siki just got pissed off and got up and battered the hell out of Carpentier knocking him out and finishing the bout.
The referee, who was in on the fix panicked and didn't know what to do so he initially ruled that Siki was Disqualified, after the crowd went completely apesh*t because they knew he had committed no rule infractions and had simply knocked out Carpentier clean. The French Federation overruled the result and awarded the victory to Siki by KO 6.
Woller
Re: Corruption in boxing
I’m pretty sure it’s even more subtle than that.
It’s important for popular fighters (those who make the money) to keep winning. So lesser fighters and past it fighters and fighters from lower weight divisions are hyped up to be a bigger challenge than they really are.
This has always gone on.
Rules are applied differently by different refs.
Jones-Ruiz wasn’t fixed but the dice were loaded.
Drug use…whose interest does it serve to catch out a superstar who brings millions into the sport? Didn’t Mosley have to admit it?
The sanctioning bodies are corrupt BUT you have to ask yourself why is it allowed to continue? Seriously, TV runs the sport and they hide behind the governing bodies. The organisations get blood on their hands and are the scapegoats but it’s TV pulling the strings. They have the most power and have managed to keep themselves at a safe distance.
It’s important for popular fighters (those who make the money) to keep winning. So lesser fighters and past it fighters and fighters from lower weight divisions are hyped up to be a bigger challenge than they really are.
This has always gone on.
Rules are applied differently by different refs.
Jones-Ruiz wasn’t fixed but the dice were loaded.
Drug use…whose interest does it serve to catch out a superstar who brings millions into the sport? Didn’t Mosley have to admit it?
The sanctioning bodies are corrupt BUT you have to ask yourself why is it allowed to continue? Seriously, TV runs the sport and they hide behind the governing bodies. The organisations get blood on their hands and are the scapegoats but it’s TV pulling the strings. They have the most power and have managed to keep themselves at a safe distance.
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Ambling Alp II
- Super Middleweight
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- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 18:31
Re: Corruption in boxing
I think I agree with most of it excpet I'm not sure what you mean about the Ruiz-Jones fight. How was the "dice loaded"?
I certainly agree that the TV networks could make a huge difference if they chose to. If they don't recognize the various WBS belts, gradually the fans won't either.
However, they (in the United States, that's basically HBO and to a lesser extent Showtime) decided long ago that they will look the other way regarding the BS from the "governing bodies". It's too bad; because in the long run it would help them as well.
There line of reasoning is that in order to hype most fights, it helps if a WBS title is at stake against a ranked contender, who may or may not be any good.
And of course they like to promote fights with an "undefeated" fighter, who may or may not be any good.
If for example HBO would just recognize one "champion" from each weight class, refuse to mention the various lame organizations by name, (like they used to refuse to say WBO on the air) that one champion they do recognize would be a bigger star. Other top fighters would want to fight that guy for big $, and top fighters would fight each other to establish themselves as the top contender.
I certainly agree that the TV networks could make a huge difference if they chose to. If they don't recognize the various WBS belts, gradually the fans won't either.
However, they (in the United States, that's basically HBO and to a lesser extent Showtime) decided long ago that they will look the other way regarding the BS from the "governing bodies". It's too bad; because in the long run it would help them as well.
There line of reasoning is that in order to hype most fights, it helps if a WBS title is at stake against a ranked contender, who may or may not be any good.
And of course they like to promote fights with an "undefeated" fighter, who may or may not be any good.
If for example HBO would just recognize one "champion" from each weight class, refuse to mention the various lame organizations by name, (like they used to refuse to say WBO on the air) that one champion they do recognize would be a bigger star. Other top fighters would want to fight that guy for big $, and top fighters would fight each other to establish themselves as the top contender.
Re: Corruption in boxing
All that makes sense. But I'm not sure TV would be any better. The organisations serve a purpose for the TV people.
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Ambling Alp II
- Super Middleweight
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- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 18:31
Re: Corruption in boxing
The networks think the organizations serve a purpose with their many "champions" and "top contenders".
However, if the networks had more vision they would see that they don't need the WBS organizations. Having 4 "champions" per weight class and all their corruption has hurt the sport immensely. In the long run, the sport would be much more healthy and much more popular without them.
However, if the networks had more vision they would see that they don't need the WBS organizations. Having 4 "champions" per weight class and all their corruption has hurt the sport immensely. In the long run, the sport would be much more healthy and much more popular without them.