'The Knockdown'

[Duch]

That's one of the most beautiful knockdowns ever.

[SteveO]

However did Ali get up from that? What a remarkable athlete he was, says a lot about him.

[yancey]

'The Knockdown'

Webster's Dictionary

Described as a 'Smokin' Joe Frazier depositing Muhammad Ali on his 'coolie'.

I think this thread should be pinned at the top of BOTP.

This seminal moment in what was indisputably the most important fight of Joe and Muhammad's career (and the 20th century, imo) should always be a readily available topic.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Excellent thread. Two guys at their best waging war, the greater man won.

[SamWise72]

What amazes me is this. Ali beat Joe twice later life. I firmly believe he would have beaten him pre exile too. This was the best Joe ever was, and whilst Ali wasn't as good as he had been, this still drew perhaps his best performance. The best Ali performance was a defeat. I wish I could see this match with a pre exile Ali; to see the best he could possibly have been.

[SamWise72]

I reckon it's between this, Schmeling Louis I, and Ali Foreman for the best win in heavyweight history.

[yancey]

What amazes me is this. Ali beat Joe twice later life. I firmly believe he would have beaten him pre exile too. This was the best Joe ever was, and whilst Ali wasn't as good as he had been, this still drew perhaps his best performance. The best Ali performance was a defeat. I wish I could see this match with a pre exile Ali; to see the best he could possibly have been.

"This was the best Joe ever was" SamWise72

Not true, bud.

Frazier's actual peak was 1969 and that version of Frazier would have stopped pre-exile, post-exile, and FOTC Ali.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

What amazes me is this. Ali beat Joe twice later life. I firmly believe he would have beaten him pre exile too. This was the best Joe ever was, and whilst Ali wasn't as good as he had been, this still drew perhaps his best performance. The best Ali performance was a defeat. I wish I could see this match with a pre exile Ali; to see the best he could possibly have been.

Joe was better in 69-70, I love how everyone ignores that. Dude snapped his ankle less than a year before he delved out this ass whipping.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

What amazes me is this. Ali beat Joe twice later life. I firmly believe he would have beaten him pre exile too. This was the best Joe ever was, and whilst Ali wasn't as good as he had been, this still drew perhaps his best performance. The best Ali performance was a defeat. I wish I could see this match with a pre exile Ali; to see the best he could possibly have been.

"This was the best Joe ever was" SamWise72

Not true, bud.

Frazier's actual peak was 1969 and that version of Frazier would have stopped pre-exile, post-exile, and FOTC Ali.

[Jaywheel]

What amazes me is this. Ali beat Joe twice later life. I firmly believe he would have beaten him pre exile too. This was the best Joe ever was, and whilst Ali wasn't as good as he had been, this still drew perhaps his best performance. The best Ali performance was a defeat. I wish I could see this match with a pre exile Ali; to see the best he could possibly have been.

"This was the best Joe ever was" SamWise72

Not true, bud.

Frazier's actual peak was 1969 and that version of Frazier would have stopped pre-exile, post-exile, and FOTC Ali.

x2

[SamWise72]

What amazes me is this. Ali beat Joe twice later life. I firmly believe he would have beaten him pre exile too. This was the best Joe ever was, and whilst Ali wasn't as good as he had been, this still drew perhaps his best performance. The best Ali performance was a defeat. I wish I could see this match with a pre exile Ali; to see the best he could possibly have been.

"This was the best Joe ever was" SamWise72

Not true, bud.

Frazier's actual peak was 1969 and that version of Frazier would have stopped pre-exile, post-exile, and FOTC Ali.

Sounds like I need to do some rewatching

[Giancarlo]

What amazes me is this. Ali beat Joe twice later life. I firmly believe he would have beaten him pre exile too. This was the best Joe ever was, and whilst Ali wasn't as good as he had been, this still drew perhaps his best performance. The best Ali performance was a defeat. I wish I could see this match with a pre exile Ali; to see the best he could possibly have been.

"This was the best Joe ever was" SamWise72

Not true, bud.

Frazier's actual peak was 1969 and that version of Frazier would have stopped pre-exile, post-exile, and FOTC Ali.

Sounds like I need to do some rewatching

Why?

You already have it right.

[BoxBuzz]

Excellent thread. Two guys at their best waging war, the greater man won the trilogy.

Fixed!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Excellent thread. Two guys at their best waging war, the greater man won the trilogy.

Fixed!

Not even close, you must have mistaken man to mean fighter.

[BoxBuzz]

Ali was the only fighter that could have turned that knockout into just a knockdown. AND get up rather briskly and get right back to being competitive.

It's the most beautiful recovery ever, and it took the great Joe Frazier to expose this facet of Ali's greatness.

In fact from that point forward, Ali begins to turn the tide on the trilogy that was to be.

Ahh...they were the best opponents ever.

[gilgamesh]

Total Rounds

'Smokin' Joe is still ahead in Rounds, and leads on points as well, if you add up all 3-Bouts.

Funny, how a little guy with only a left-hook and no defense can 'out-wit' somebody who called himself 'The Greatest'.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Frazier had no defense, he certainly had a vulnerable defense to hooks and uppercuts, but because a lot of Ali's defense was focused on his jab and straight right Frazier's bobbing and weaving his way in was a fairly effective form of defense against Ali.

[yancey]

Ali was the only fighter that could have turned that knockout into just a knockdown. AND get up rather briskly and get right back to being competitive.

It's the most beautiful recovery ever, and it took the great Joe Frazier to expose this facet of Ali's greatness.

In fact from that point forward, Ali begins to turn the tide on the trilogy that was to be.

Ahh...they were the best opponents ever.

"Right back to being competitive", huh?

Less than one minute after the knockdown, Joe had Ali out on his feet for a couple of seconds following a good left. Dunphy saw it, too.

Inexplicably, Joe gave Ali oxygen instead of putting him right down with another punch. If Ali goes down there, the three knockdown rule is now in play with half the round left. (honest knockdowns, unlike the stuff that Ali got away with on the last two against Bonavena)

I wonder how history would have changed if Joe had gone and ahead and finished Ali that night, like he should have.

Maybe Joe would have followed his heart and Yank's advice and gone ahead and retired.

[BoxBuzz]

Ali was the only fighter that could have turned that knockout into just a knockdown. AND get up rather briskly and get right back to being competitive.

It's the most beautiful recovery ever, and it took the great Joe Frazier to expose this facet of Ali's greatness.

In fact from that point forward, Ali begins to turn the tide on the trilogy that was to be.

Ahh...they were the best opponents ever.

"Right back to being competitive", huh?

Less than one minute after the knockdown, Joe had Ali out on his feet for a couple of seconds following a good left. Dunphy saw it, too.

Inexplicably, Joe gave Ali oxygen instead of putting him right down with another punch. If Ali goes down there, the three knockdown rule is now in play with half the round left. (honest knockdowns, unlike the stuff that Ali got away with on the last two against Bonavena)

I wonder how history would have changed if Joe had gone and ahead and finished Ali that night, like he should have.

Maybe Joe would have followed his heart and Yank's advice and gone ahead and retired.

Your sounding like Joe didn't give his best. He did. And like I said, Joe exposed Ali's greatness.

And he was competitive after the KD. Don't go sayin different, or I'll come right back here and

start sayin' even more different.

Let's not get all mebbe so's and woulda coulda here. Let the reality be as it was and is.

[BoxBuzz]

'Hey 'Smokin Joe', tell us what scoring that Knockdown felt like.'

http://r.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0LEV1 ... BksHaTQCbU

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I'll bet it was first class info!

[grevan]

I see the childish one man vendetta against Ali continues unabated.

I'll check back in a month to see how it's going.

[yancey]

"Hey Joe, you should come down here at look at the stitching in the canvas."

I have never seen that particular photo. Love it with Joe walking away but starting to look back at his work.

Might have a friend paint me something along those lines.

Call it "The Vanquished".

Or maybe "Job Done".

[Duch]

"Hey Joe, you should come down here at look at the stitching in the canvas."

I have never seen that particular photo. Love it with Joe walking away but starting to look back at his work.

Might have a friend paint me something along those lines.

Call it "The Vanquished".

Or maybe "Job Done".

Or "Dying Gaul"

[yancey]

Muhammad Ali

"I was tripped. I was tripped. Joe Frazier has a very fast left foot."

He "tripped" in the 11th, too.

Mr. Granberry and others have called that a legit knockdown. I'm inclined to agree.

[yancey]

Muhammad Ali

"I was tripped. I was tripped. Joe Frazier has a very fast left foot."

The swelling on Ali's right side of his face is very noticeable.

When did the swelling become evident? Was it the 15th?

I always thought it stemmed from the knockdown punch, but it must have started earlier.

[gilgamesh]

Muhammad Ali

"I was tripped. I was tripped. Joe Frazier has a very fast left foot."

The swelling on Ali's right side of his face is very noticeable.

When did the swelling become evident? Was it the 15th?

I don't know exactly when it became noticeable, but I'll bet that shot in the 11th when he had Ali damn near out on his feet was probably what started the swelling to really get bad.