1964 ~ Cassius Clay ~ "Tells Joe Frazier To Fight At 175"

[raylawpc]

Sources please . . .

[raylawpc]

Joe Frazier

I had just comeback from Tokyo an Olympic Champion. I made my Rounds in Philadelphia and New York
at the end of October 1964.

Then I went up to Boston to see Cassius Clay and Sonny Liston in Training Camp. I went to see Sonny first,
and he was gracious and congratulated me. He asked me if I was going to turn Professional, and I said that
I probably would in 3 to 6 months. He said he would like to see me in the Ring sometime, and said he would
come to Philadelphia to watch me.

Then I went to Cassius's Camp, and brought along my Gold Medal. When I saw him, he walked up to me and
shook my hand and said good job. He said he saw a couple of my fights, and said that I looked good.

I asked him a few questions, and asked for his advice.

He told me to forget about the Heavyweight Division, and said that I was too small and would get destroyed. He
told me to lose 20 lbs., and start off as a Light-Heavyweight. He called me a little guy.

October 1964........ Joe Frazier {Age; 20 years} 195 lbs.

Sources please . . .

[SolomonDeedes]

Sources please . . .

I have to admire your stamina - you're like Jeremy Paxman.

[SolomonDeedes]

November 3, 1964

Joe Frazier >

"We heard that Cassius Clay put out a call to get more sparring partners up to his Training Camp in Boston.
I was going to go up there anyway, so I figured I could possibly get in a few Rounds as a sparring-partner
for the Champion - Cassius Clay."

"When I got up there, we exchanged a few nice words. Then all of a sudden he was calling me 'Little Joe'.
I was {195 lbs.}, but was cut and in great shape. I told Cassius that I would be turning Pro in 1965, and had
planned to fight once-a-month in the Heavyweight Division for 2-Years. And that I'd be ready for him by 1967."

"That's when Cassius said to me, "You're wasting your time Joe. Your body is too small. Loose that 'Baby Fat'
and get down to Light-Heavyweight. Get that Title first, and see what you can do with it."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... j7WouRVmHg

Why is there a link here to an unrelated article which doesn't even mention Joe Frazier?

[BoxBuzz]

Ray.....I too have asked for sources even when what I'm reading that which pleases me greatly.

Any positive I read about Joe makes me smile....same for Ali.....I know that's an unusual combination o

of heroes. However "made up good stuff" even about folks I admire does no one any good.

I hate to think that real history could get lost in the crosswinds of confabulations.

There is a serious suck factor to that.

[BoxBuzz]

November 3, 1964

Joe Frazier >

"We heard that Cassius Clay put out a call to get more sparring partners up to his Training Camp in Boston.
I was going to go up there anyway, so I figured I could possibly get in a few Rounds as a sparring-partner
for the Champion - Cassius Clay."

"When I got up there, we exchanged a few nice words. Then all of a sudden he was calling me 'Little Joe'.
I was {195 lbs.}, but was cut and in great shape. I told Cassius that I would be turning Pro in 1965, and had
planned to fight once-a-month in the Heavyweight Division for 2-Years. And that I'd be ready for him by 1967."

"That's when Cassius said to me, "You're wasting your time Joe. Your body is too small. Loose that 'Baby Fat'
and get down to Light-Heavyweight. Get that Title first, and see what you can do with it."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... j7WouRVmHg

Why is there a link here to an unrelated article which doesn't even mention Joe Frazier?

It's this writers style of fictional parallel universe writing. It does confuse many of us. And it's not against any rule. Just sucks to have to figure out what is and what aint. But if taken as fiction or Quasi fiction can provide some good reading for some. And he loves to produce it.

[RAPIDFIRE]

Response to IDUCE post.
I believe Cassius Clay was correct when he said "Joe is just a little Guy"
I believe Cassius Clay was correct However he obviously had it backwards when
he said the following:
"You're just a little guy Joe. You'll get creamed in the Heavyweight Division"
The opposite happened...Cassius Clay got creamed by "Joe the little Guy...Hmmm!

[RAPIDFIRE]

Rapid-Fire,

Remember, this was November 1964, and 'Little Joe' was 195 lbs. and had a School-Boy look.

Cassius Clay and Sonny Liston were 215 lb. bigger guys.

Good point...I just wanted to state that all his boasting, silly predictions, and trash talking that was simply just trash and not talking
was flawed rhetoric. Some enjoyed it...and that's fine...but others may not have appreciated it.

[RAPIDFIRE]

November 1964

Fight Manager - Sonny Wiggins

"Joe Frazier is too small. He's about 185 lbs. soaking wet. He's short, has no style and he has no reach. He may do good if
they keep him fighting Light-Heavyweights, but once they step him up against the 'Big Boys' he's going to take a beating.
He'll need about 15-Fights against some 'Ham-and-Eggers' first, before he'll be ready for somebody decent. He won
the Gold Medal, but I'm not impressed."

"I've got a kid Johnny Deutsch from Allentown who's 11-0-0 {10 KO's} who'll take him on anytime. Johnny wants to fight
him now, but we have to wait until they get Frazier into the Ring as a Professional in 1965. Johnny is a big kid {6' 2" ad 215 lbs.}
and he'll throw Frazier all over the Ring."

Sonny who?...Kid Johnny who?.... Joe Frazier who? none other than Heavyweight Champion of the World
What did those guys know. Joe Frazier did not throw anybody all over the ring...he just put them to sleep in the ring
with a devastating left hook.

[yancey]

November 1964

Fight Manager - Sonny Wiggins

"Joe Frazier is too small. He's about 185 lbs. soaking wet. He's short, has no style and he has no reach. He may do good if
they keep him fighting Light-Heavyweights, but once they step him up against the 'Big Boys' he's going to take a beating.
He'll need about 15-Fights against some 'Ham-and-Eggers' first, before he'll be ready for somebody decent. He won
the Gold Medal, but I'm not impressed."

"I've got a kid Johnny Deutsch from Allentown who's 11-0-0 {10 KO's} who'll take him on anytime. Johnny wants to fight
him now, but we have to wait until they get Frazier into the Ring as a Professional in 1965. Johnny is a big kid {6' 2" ad 215 lbs.}
and he'll throw Frazier all over the Ring."

Sonny who?...Kid Johnny who?.... Joe Frazier who? none other than Heavyweight Champion of the World
What did those guys know. Joe Frazier did not throw anybody all over the ring...he just put them to sleep in the ring
with a devastating left hook.

Just took a gander at "11-0-0" Johnny Deutsch's record.

His won/lost record was 9-7, with 6 knockout losses. His most notable outing must be a 6 round KO loss to Chuck Wepner in '66.

I would have liked to have seen him "throw Frazier all over the ring."

[Giancarlo]

November 1964

Fight Manager - Sonny Wiggins

"Joe Frazier is too small. He's about 185 lbs. soaking wet. He's short, has no style and he has no reach. He may do good if
they keep him fighting Light-Heavyweights, but once they step him up against the 'Big Boys' he's going to take a beating.
He'll need about 15-Fights against some 'Ham-and-Eggers' first, before he'll be ready for somebody decent. He won
the Gold Medal, but I'm not impressed."

"I've got a kid Johnny Deutsch from Allentown who's 11-0-0 {10 KO's} who'll take him on anytime. Johnny wants to fight
him now, but we have to wait until they get Frazier into the Ring as a Professional in 1965. Johnny is a big kid {6' 2" ad 215 lbs.}
and he'll throw Frazier all over the Ring."

Sonny who?...Kid Johnny who?.... Joe Frazier who? none other than Heavyweight Champion of the World
What did those guys know. Joe Frazier did not throw anybody all over the ring...he just put them to sleep in the ring
with a devastating left hook.

Just took a gander at "11-0-0" Johnny Deutsch's record.

His won/lost record was 9-7, with 6 knockout losses. His most notable outing must be a 6 round KO loss to Chuck Wepner in '66.

I would have liked to have seen him "throw Frazier all over the ring."

The 11-0-0 record is from the fantasy world that Il Duce lives in.

[RAPIDFIRE]

Johnny Deutsch

Monday ~ August 16, 1965

Was supposed to be Joe Frazier's opponent for his debut on August 16, 1965.

Johnny was from Allentown, and was Managed by Sonny Wiggins {Chester, PA}. At the time 'Johnny D'
was being billed with a record of 10-1-0 {10 KO's}, and Sonny Wiggins was 'bad-mouthing' Joe Frazier.

The day of the bout, Sonny Wiggins was asked to bring his fighter {Johnny Deutsch} in to Philadelphia
for the bout, but Sonny Wiggins after first agreeing, declined later in the day.

Johnny was little more than a Club-Fighter that was given a bunch of 'soft-touches' to build up his record.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... QvI9yN1Omw

That clears it up just as I thought...maybe somebody was throwing "little Johnny" around the ring so he
wasn't able to show up