Prime Muhammad Ali vs. a prime Larry Holmes?

[NYDominican]

A prime Muhammad Ali against a prime Larry Holmes.


What advantages would Muhammad have over Larry?


What advantages would Larry have over Muhammad?


What do you see happening in this fight?


Who would win?


Why?

[Crease]

What advantages would Muhammad have over Larry?
Ali has his speed and footwork... Compared to Muhammad, Larry looks flat-footed and rigid.

What advantages would Larry have over Muhammad?
Larry had the bet jab in the history of the Heavyweight division - it was the perfect blend of power, speed and precision. That's a significant advantage over anybody.

What do you see happening in this fight?
I predict that Larry would win his share of rounds, but Ali would win more. Muhammad has too much ability, speed and skill to lose this fight.

Who would win?
In a technical sense, Larry tended to rely on his jab, unfortunately he's in a fight against a clever speedster. In that regard, this is a bad match up for Larry. Though to give Larry his credit, I don't think Muhammad would stop him, but he would win by convincing Unanaimous Decision.

Why?
The key factor would be Ali neutralising Larry's jab. Ali would stay on the move, and move around Larry's jab, it would unnerve him after a few rounds. Ali's speed was considerable and with his lateral movement, it wouldn't give Larry time to set himself for his jabs.

It would frustrate Larry all night. Even the best jab in the world is no good, if you can't catch your target.

[p4p1]

I agree with Crease Ali's movement and the direction in which he liked to move would most probably nullify Holmes' jab and along with his speed advantage I would see him taking this fight.

[HomicideHenry]

It was well known and documented that Holmes left the Ali camp in 1974, because Holmes by that time was so gifted that Muhammad could no longer deal with him in sparring. What Holmes may of lacked, he certainly made up for in determination and laser precision. He certainly couldn't get psyched out by Muhammad Ali, and wouldn't have fallen for any of Ali's tricks and tactics.

Ali had speed, yes, but his greatest weakness was if someone could nullify that speed. Frazier did it with swarming, and Norton did it with counter-punching. Holmes, at his best, was a hell of a counter-puncher when need be and he was a boxer-puncher. Holmes could get down and dirty, and he could also box beautifully. The problem Holmes has, is he would not only be combating Ali's speed, but also the Ali mystique which would no doubt have swayed not only the crowd, but judges as well.

Personally, any version of Ali in the 1970's would fall victim to Larry Holmes. The 1960's Ali, is a whole other matter. But, I believe it would have been a close, competitive affair. If Ali wins it, it is not by a wide margin in the least. Holmes wouldn't be swayed, and Holmes wouldn't come unglued or be desperate like so many were. He wouldn't of stalked Ali, like so many others did. No, Holmes would of made Ali come to him.

[Crease]

It was well known and documented that Holmes left the Ali camp in 1974, because Holmes by that time was so gifted that Muhammad could no longer deal with him in sparring.

That is a long-lasting rumor and it has never once been proven as of yet. We shouldn't take that as a concrete fact. The problem with rumors like these are that they tend to spring up all over the place, as such - as a boxing fan - you must decide which ones to believe and which ones not to. Because of this, I just don't engage in any conversations about these rumors.

What Holmes may of lacked, he certainly made up for in determination and laser precision. He certainly couldn't get psyched out by Muhammad Ali, and wouldn't have fallen for any of Ali's tricks and tactics.

Ali had speed, yes, but his greatest weakness was if someone could nullify that speed. Frazier did it with swarming, and Norton did it with counter-punching. Holmes, at his best, was a hell of a counter-puncher when need be and he was a boxer-puncher. Holmes could get down and dirty, and he could also box beautifully. The problem Holmes has, is he would not only be combating Ali's speed, but also the Ali mystique which would no doubt have swayed not only the crowd, but judges as well.

Personally, any version of Ali in the 1970's would fall victim to Larry Holmes. The 1960's Ali, is a whole other matter. But, I believe it would have been a close, competitive affair. If Ali wins it, it is not by a wide margin in the least. Holmes wouldn't be swayed, and Holmes wouldn't come unglued or be desperate like so many were. He wouldn't of stalked Ali, like so many others did. No, Holmes would of made Ali come to him.

Larry fell victim to a quick, clever boxer in Michael Spinks... He lost to Spinks twice and Ali had many of the same attributes that Spinks had

[Cap]

Muhammad Ali at his best would make Holmes look like a gormless noob. No matter what the judges said, he lost to Norton. Holmes' greatest weapon wasn't his jab it was his thumb. He won most of his fights by using his thumb-in-the-eye tactic. Blind the guy then overwhelm him. Holmes fought a string of talentless journeymen before being forced to go the distance in a close fight with Trevor Berbick. Losing to Michael Spinks not once but twice sums up the big stiff's career.

[HomicideHenry]

Larry fell victim to a quick, clever boxer in Michael Spinks... He lost to Spinks twice and Ali had many of the same attributes that Spinks had

I will not hold it against Larry, considering he was older, slower and on his way out the door when he lost to Spinks. And if anyone actually believes Holmes lost the rematch, they are grossly mistaken.

And what attributes? Spinks fought nothing at all like Ali.

[yancey]

Ali would win something like 8-6-1 in this one.

[BoxBuzz]

Yancey, you are a well known Ali rumpswab, always taking Ali's side with no thoughtful accounting of skills, talent, determination.


It's always Ali, Ali, Ali with you.

Joe Frazier beat Ali in the biggest fight of all time. And you struggle with that, but you must learn to live with it.

[p4p1]

I don't know what the point I'd of bringing up sparring sessions between the two when it is well documented that Ali was a horrible gym fighter.

[Othro]

I'd take Holmes . While I believe they are fairly close in talent id give Holmes the edge here due to him being more skilled . I don't think Ali will be able to pull off the same tricks on Holmes that he did to lesser boxers .

[Sklar]

EA

[yancey]

Yancey, you are a well known Ali rumpswab, always taking Ali's side with no thoughtful accounting of skills, talent, determination.


It's always Ali, Ali, Ali with you.

Joe Frazier beat Ali in the biggest fight of all time. And you struggle with that, but you must learn to live with it.

Dear Buzz,

Are you again experiencing bewilderment?

What you suggest above is a PERFECT description of a certain other "contributor" here.

Not yours truly, I'm into complete objectivity.

Hopefully you are up and about and feeling more lucid today.


Yancey

[Crease]

And what attributes? Spinks fought nothing at all like Ali.

I was referring to the fact that both men were Light Heavyweights (Ali in his amateur days) rather than their actual fighting styles.

In fact, could you compare Muhammad Ali's style with anyone's? I can't think of anyone in the Heavyweight Division who could accurately be compared with Ali.

[HomicideHenry]

And what attributes? Spinks fought nothing at all like Ali.

I was referring to the fact that both men were Light Heavyweights (Ali in his amateur days) rather than their actual fighting styles.

In fact, could you compare Muhammad Ali's style with anyone's? I can't think of anyone in the Heavyweight Division who could accurately be compared with Ali.

Then that is one attribute, not plural sir.

[Duch]

Larry Holmes

[Syntax Error]

It was well known and documented that Holmes left the Ali camp in 1974, because Holmes by that time was so gifted that Muhammad could no longer deal with him in sparring. What Holmes may of lacked, he certainly made up for in determination and laser precision. He certainly couldn't get psyched out by Muhammad Ali, and wouldn't have fallen for any of Ali's tricks and tactics.

Ali had speed, yes, but his greatest weakness was if someone could nullify that speed. Frazier did it with swarming, and Norton did it with counter-punching. Holmes, at his best, was a hell of a counter-puncher when need be and he was a boxer-puncher. Holmes could get down and dirty, and he could also box beautifully. The problem Holmes has, is he would not only be combating Ali's speed, but also the Ali mystique which would no doubt have swayed not only the crowd, but judges as well.

Personally, any version of Ali in the 1970's would fall victim to Larry Holmes. The 1960's Ali, is a whole other matter. But, I believe it would have been a close, competitive affair. If Ali wins it, it is not by a wide margin in the least. Holmes wouldn't be swayed, and Holmes wouldn't come unglued or be desperate like so many were. He wouldn't of stalked Ali, like so many others did. No, Holmes would of made Ali come to him.

HomicideHenry, you've saved me a lot of typing!! :P

I see it like this really.

I've always thought Holmes would have been one of prime Ali's most difficult opponents due to his magnificent jab & determination.

I agree that 70s Ali would unlikely have beaten Larry Holmes, but 60s Ali would have eked out a very close 15 round win, with a lot of hard to score rounds.

[Crease]

Then that is one attribute, not plural sir.

Correcting people's grammar isn't going to make you many friends, Rufus.

[Crease]

I see it like this really.

I've always thought Holmes would have been one of prime Ali's most difficult opponents due to his magnificent jab & determination.

I agree that 70s Ali would unlikely have beaten Larry Holmes, but 60s Ali would have eked out a very close 15 round win, with a lot of hard to score rounds.

Well, as I say, it's your choice if you want to believe in the sparring rumours. Personally, I prefer the concrete evidence of professional fights.

[evrenb]

I feel a motivated 1974 Ali - knowing the challenge in front of him (i.e not underestimating a Norton) would beat Holmes by close decision.

I feel a 1966 - 1967 Ali would win over Holmes 9-6 or 10-5 in rounds. Ali was Supernatural in this period. He would have beaten Frazier then too in my opinion.

evren

[yancey]

I feel a motivated 1974 Ali - knowing the challenge in front of him (i.e not underestimating a Norton) would beat Holmes by close decision.

I feel a 1966 - 1967 Ali would win over Holmes 9-6 or 10-5 in rounds. Ali was Supernatural in this period. He would have beaten Frazier then too in my opinion.

evren

While I agree that Ali at his best decisions Holmes, I again will point out that the caliber of opposition Ali faced in '66-'67 was way lower than he faced after the layoff.

It was easy for Ali to look awesome against those guys.

[evrenb]

How about Sonny Liston prior to this then...? And in regards to Cleve Williams...watch his fight prior to the Ali match...against Herring...watch the live broadcast and tell me he was washed up!! Ernie Terrell??

[Syntax Error]

I feel a motivated 1974 Ali - knowing the challenge in front of him (i.e not underestimating a Norton) would beat Holmes by close decision.

I feel a 1966 - 1967 Ali would win over Holmes 9-6 or 10-5 in rounds. Ali was Supernatural in this period. He would have beaten Frazier then too in my opinion.

evren

It would have been unfair on Frazier to pit him against Ali in 1966/67, as he wasn't quite ready then.

Frazier was in his pomp in 1969 & Ali in 1966/67; that would have been a better barometer.

Frazier's style would always have been a nightmare for Ali.

Although I'd lean towards Ali, he would have had to have gone through hell to beat a prime Frazier.

[Syntax Error]

I feel a motivated 1974 Ali - knowing the challenge in front of him (i.e not underestimating a Norton) would beat Holmes by close decision.

I feel a 1966 - 1967 Ali would win over Holmes 9-6 or 10-5 in rounds. Ali was Supernatural in this period. He would have beaten Frazier then too in my opinion.

evren

It would have been unfair on Frazier to pit him against Ali in 1966/67, as he wasn't quite ready then.

Frazier was in his pomp in 1969 & Ali in 1966/67; that would have been a better barometer.

Frazier's style would always have been a nightmare for Ali.

Although I'd lean towards Ali, he would have had to have gone through hell to beat a prime Frazier.

[yancey]

How about Sonny Liston prior to this then...? And in regards to Cleve Williams...watch his fight prior to the Ali match...against Herring...watch the live broadcast and tell me he was washed up!! Ernie Terrell??

If you don't realize that 11/66 Cleve Williams was a washed up fighter, then you are utterly and completely beyond help.

And do you really think that Ernie Terrell was some kind of big time threat to Ali? He and the way past it Folley were exactly the kind of plodders that Ali could look great against.

But hey, Ali did go up against the extremely dangerous Brian London. I'll give him that.

Prime Frazier takes less than 20 rounds to dispose of all 5 guys that Ali fought in '66.


p.s. I'm sure Alp will be along to rationalize that there was a vast difference between the 3/66 Chuvalo that Ali struggled 15 rounds with and the 7/67 version that Frazier made turn away in 9 minutes and 16 seconds.