Hungary's great Laszlo Papp. What could?

[NYDominican]

Hungary's great Laszlo Papp. Had Hungary's left wing communist dictatorship not stiffled Laszlo's boxing career?


Laszlo had a phenomenol amateur career.

1. 1948 Olympics. In London, England.

Laszlo fought Finland's Valfrid Resko. Laszlo won by a 2nd round knockout.

Laszlo fought Luxembourg's Jean Welter. Laszlo won by a 1st round knockout.

Laszlo fought Belgium's Auguste Cavignac. Laszlo won by a 1st round knockout.

Laszlo fought Italy's Ivano Fontana. Laszlo won by a 3 - 0 decision.

Laszlo fought England's John Wright. Laszlo won by a 3 - 0 decision.



2. 1952 Olympics. In Helsinki, Finland.

Laszlo fought the United States Spider Webb. Laszlo won by a 2nd round knockout.

Laszlo fought Canada's Charlie Chase. Laszlo won by a 2nd round knockout.

Laszlo fought Bulgaria's Petar Stankoff Spassoff. Laszlo won by a 3 - 0 decision.

Laszlo fought Argentina's Eladio Oscar Herrera. Laszlo won by a 3 - 0 decision.

Laszlo fought South Africa's Theunis Jacobus van Schalkwyk. Laszlo won by a 3 - 0 decision.




3. 1956 Olympics. In Melbourne, Australia.


Laszlo fought Argentina's Alberto Saenz. Laszlo won by a 3rd round knockout.

Laszlo fought Poland's Zbigniew Pietrzykowki. Laszlo won by a 3 - 0 decision.

Laszlo fought the United States Jose Torres. Laszlo won by a 2 -1 decision.

[NYDominican]

Laszlo Papp had some hand trouble. Despite this, he turned professional in 1957. But, Hungary had a left wing communist dictatorship which didn't allow professional boxing. Laszlo had to travel to Vienna, Austria for his training and fights.

Papp's professional record. ------

He beat several top ranking contenders for the European Middleweight title. Laszlo beat Tiger Jones, French champion Hippolyte Annex and Chris Christensen. Papp beat Randy Sanday.


1964. -----

Laszlo signed up for the world championship bout. But, Hungary's government brought his professional career to an end by denying him an exit visa.




Had his nations government not been so restrictive & repressive to Laszlo, what do you think he could have achieved as a pro?

Do you think Laszlo could have been an all time professional great?

If so, why?

[Bodyshot3]

Certainly one of the greatest amateurs we'll ever see....3 consecutive golds at Olympics and there are also 2 European championships in there just for good measure.

I am guessing he could have gone all the way despite not starting to fight professionally until he was in his 30's and being just 5 ft 5 inches tall. He must have been the original pocket rocket!

Papp's pro career started in the aftermath of the 1956 Hungarian Revolution (the Hungarians rose up against the Communists and Moscow's domination) and I am actually surprised he was allowed to box professionally and travel in such circumstances, because there was a vicious backlash from the Communist Party and Hungary was forced back into Moscow's orbit.

[dnahar32]

I think, at the time, with all-time greats such as Joey Giardello, Dick Tiger, and Niño Benvenuti with the middleweight title in the mid-60s, it would have been very difficult for Papp to win the middleweight title. He was very short for a middleweight and had a small reach. He relied on infighting and bulling tactics on the inside and I think these fighters would jab him relentlessly and break him down slowly from the outside. He is a great fighter, but I don't see him beating the elite HOF level middleweights with his physical handicaps relative to those fighters.

[DrDuke]

By the time he reached his pro prime there was an end of the Fullmer and Pender reigns. It would have been his best shots at the World title, Papp really could win there. I won't pick Papp over the likes of Tiger and Giardello though.

[HomicideHenry]

He was supposed to fight Joey Giardello for the middleweight title but the Hungarian government prevented him from doing so. Personally I think he would have won that match. Now whether he could have had a great reign is an entirely different matter. I don't think he would have lasted long among the top, but he certainly would've beaten Giardello.

[Caractacus]

I know he inspired Joe Bugner to take up boxing,
watching him on the b/w telly way back when.

[klompton]

I dont think he would have done much as a pro. At the end of his career he was struggling with guys who werent in the top ten or anywhere near. The best names on his resume were WAY past their prime when he beat them. His pro record is pretty underwhelming. Saying he "certainly would have beaten" any version of Giardello at that point is comical. He had never done anything remotely on the magnitude of what Giardello had accomplished in the recent past to suggest that he could have beaten even that faded version of Joey.

[HomicideHenry]

Okay, Papp was scheduled to fight Giardello in 1964. The best way to analyze his chances is to look at Giardello in 1964 and 1965. Papp was 27-0-2 (15) when his career was forcefully ended.

In 1963 Giardello defeated the ghost of Ray Robinson which got him the middleweight title shot against Dick Tiger in 1964. He of course beat Tiger over 15 rounds--- he says immediately after the contest that he would love to defend the title against European champion Laszlo Papp.

However that wasn't to be as he would fight against 48-10-1 Juan Carlos Rivera instead, and although he won the decision it was not at all popular.

This for stay rematch with Rivera, which was another close encounter but this time Giardello convincingly won. It must be noted these two matches were not for the title.

He then defends the title against Rubin Carter, and despite Carter's autobiography and the highly fictitious film Hurricane, Giardello did win the fight; there was no robbery. It was a very competitive contest early on but as the fight progressed Giardello's experience beat out Carter's youth.

He then does a bout with Gil Diaz, a journeyman with a 14-12-3 record, and goes the entire 10 round distance with the man, winning 8 rounds to 2. Not for the title, but you would certainly expect a world champion to do better than this.

He then faces Dick Tiger again, which happens to be their fourth and final meeting together, and he loses the title very convincingly by scores of 10-5, 9-5, and 8-6.

From this point on, Giardello never does anything of real substance in the sport of boxing again. He'd face Cash White after the Tiger match, a journeyman with a record of 3-7-0, and it went the entire 10 rounds. Later on that year he would lose to a journeyman named Nate Collins (10-9-0) by stoppage in the 8th round.

It seems to me, that Giardello was so battle scarred and shopworn by the time 1964-1965 came around that it is quite possible that a man of Papp's skills could've easily went the distance and possibly won.

I think a reasonable case can be made that he would have because Giardello was on the way out, the Rivera matches demonstrated that a guy outside the top ten rankings could essentially embarrass the reigning champ.

Carter was not a great boxer. He reminds me a bit of Bob Satterfield who would throw everything but the kitchen sink real early on, and if that didn't work he began to fade.

How Giardello was actually able to beat Tiger for the title is actually pretty incredible when you really think about it; but truth of the matter is Tiger was going out the door too.

Papp and Giardello did have a few mutual opponents, Randy Sandy being one of them. Giardello won a split decision over him, while Papp won a unanimous decision. Ralph Jones, Peter Mueller, and Charley Cotton were also mutual opponents.

Giardello was an inconsistent fighter, but you have to admire his work rate. The man had over a hundred matches after all. But I definitely think Papp would have chopped him up and won a decision.

[klompton]

Okay, Papp was scheduled to fight Giardello in 1964. The best way to analyze his chances is to look at Giardello in 1964 and 1965. Papp was 27-0-2 (15) when his career was forcefully ended.

In 1963 Giardello defeated the ghost of Ray Robinson which got him the middleweight title shot against Dick Tiger in 1964. He of course beat Tiger over 15 rounds--- he says immediately after the contest that he would love to defend the title against European champion Laszlo Papp.

However that wasn't to be as he would fight against 48-10-1 Juan Carlos Rivera instead, and although he won the decision it was not at all popular.

This for stay rematch with Rivera, which was another close encounter but this time Giardello convincingly won. It must be noted these two matches were not for the title.

He then defends the title against Rubin Carter, and despite Carter's autobiography and the highly fictitious film Hurricane, Giardello did win the fight; there was no robbery. It was a very competitive contest early on but as the fight progressed Giardello's experience beat out Carter's youth.

He then does a bout with Gil Diaz, a journeyman with a 14-12-3 record, and goes the entire 10 round distance with the man, winning 8 rounds to 2. Not for the title, but you would certainly expect a world champion to do better than this.

He then faces Dick Tiger again, which happens to be their fourth and final meeting together, and he loses the title very convincingly by scores of 10-5, 9-5, and 8-6.

From this point on, Giardello never does anything of real substance in the sport of boxing again. He'd face Cash White after the Tiger match, a journeyman with a record of 3-7-0, and it went the entire 10 rounds. Later on that year he would lose to a journeyman named Nate Collins (10-9-0) by stoppage in the 8th round.

It seems to me, that Giardello was so battle scarred and shopworn by the time 1964-1965 came around that it is quite possible that a man of Papp's skills could've easily went the distance and possibly won.

I think a reasonable case can be made that he would have because Giardello was on the way out, the Rivera matches demonstrated that a guy outside the top ten rankings could essentially embarrass the reigning champ.

Carter was not a great boxer. He reminds me a bit of Bob Satterfield who would throw everything but the kitchen sink real early on, and if that didn't work he began to fade.

How Giardello was actually able to beat Tiger for the title is actually pretty incredible when you really think about it; but truth of the matter is Tiger was going out the door too.

Papp and Giardello did have a few mutual opponents, Randy Sandy being one of them. Giardello won a split decision over him, while Papp won a unanimous decision. Ralph Jones, Peter Mueller, and Charley Cotton were also mutual opponents.

Giardello was an inconsistent fighter, but you have to admire his work rate. The man had over a hundred matches after all. But I definitely think Papp would have chopped him up and won a decision.

Thats all fine and good but in beating Robinson, Tiger, Carter, and Rivero Giardello had beaten men FAR above anyone Papp had beaten. You conveniently ignore that while Papp did beat Jones, Sandy etc. those fights were years after Giardello had faced them when those guys were shot. The closest they came to facing a common opponent at the same time was Mueller who had recently defeated Giardello in Muellers hometown but whats missing from that story is that when Giardello went to Germany to face Mueller his hotel was moved by the Germans at the last minute, he wasnt allowed access to quality sparring partners, and the heat was cut to the gym he was forced to train at (it was winter at the time). Mueller won a decision against Giardello under those conditions but a few years earlier when they fought Giardello had knocked him out in a round. So if you can dig someone up that Papp beat who was better than any of Giardellos big wins leading up to and after winning the title Id love to hear it.

You obviously have an agenda and/or bias here because trying to claim Tiger was going out the door when Giardello beat him is comical at best. First of all this was their third fight. Giardello had already beaten him once, and the loss to Tiger was very controversial. One of my good friends was in attendance that night and said Giardello deserved the "W". As for Tiger he lost to Giardello in 1963. He won the title back convincingly and reigned until 1966 when Griffith beat him on a razor thin decision. He won the LHW title in his next fight and reigned for two years after that he fought on for two more years beating two ranked LHW contenders and the MW champion. You make it sound like he tottered into the ring with a cane. The fact is that Tiger wasnt the most consistent performer either but he matured late as a fighter and was on the best win streak of his career when Giardello beat him and was not convincingly beaten again for another five years before Bob Foster, one of the hardest punching and most dangerous light heavyweights in history, knocked him out.

[HomicideHenry]

When I meant "on the way out," for Tiger I was meaning as a middleweight. After Giardello he'd face the over-the-hill Peter Mueller (KO3) and then he lost to Emille Griffith (L15).

He never fought at the weight again, until his very last match rematching Griffith, as he went to 175 pounds to challenge Jose Torres for the title and won the decision. The fact remains, however, he was effectively done at 160 pounds.

**************************************

Concerning Giardello/Mueller, there were a lot of dirty tricks that went on in boxing in those days which is something people have to take into account when it comes to wins and losses on people's records from back in the day.

Which is largely why I focused primarily on the years 1964 and 1965, although I did mention 1966 to further solidify the point that Giardello was basically done as a fighter as he was struggling and losing to journeyman.

The Rivera matches were in that time frame in which Laszlo Papp would have gotten the shot at Giardello--- and Rivera was not a ranked fighter, meaning he was not in the top ten.

Giardello was gifted the decision the first time around, and the return bout was competitive. By Giardello's own admission he spent too much time on the banquet circuit after winning the title--- which in my view means that Papp most likely would've pulled off the win against Giardello because the champion was living large rather than being focused.

I have a few other reasons why I think Papp would have won. First, he was far less shopworn than Giardello--- having only 27 contests compared to Giardello's 100+ contests.

Sure, someone could point out that Carter had 24 contests and that it was his inexperience that cost him against Giardello--- but Rubin Carter was nowhere near as skilled or smart as Papp, as the Hungarian had an enormous amateur pedigree behind him. Carter didn't have that.

Second, there was this mindset back then that European fighters were inferior to American fighters largely because every time the Europeans bragged that they had a prospect ready for a shot at the title they fell faster than a lead balloon when they came overseas.

I think because of this mindset Papp would have been overlooked by Giardello, especially when Giardello already had wins against men that Papp had defeated--- as you pointed out they were older and slower versions.

I think the American mindset, also, would have been that Papp was more amateur than he was professional and wouldn't have been taken as seriously as say Dick Tiger or Emille Griffith, etc.

Third, Papp was a southpaw. Stupid as that sounds, southpaws then like now are less common than orthodox fighters. They can throw people's timing off, etc. Giardello rarely ever faced southpaw fighters--- and with Papp's skills and abilities, that would have been problematic for a man whose scar tissue has scar tissue, and nearing the twilight of his career.

So that's at least four reasons why I think Papp would've won--- although I must concede that I think Giardello would have won the return bout, provided that the Hungarian government wouldn't have ended Papp's career upon seizing the title.

Why? Simply because Giardello defeated Rivera in the return as well as Carter, and put up a good performance against Dick Tiger in their last encounter. Giardello was inconsistent in his performances but he could rise to the occasion.

Papp, I think, would have been a one-off victor, although I think he could've had wins against other top tier middleweights--- but timing would have been everything and quite frankly he was going out the door himself.

Back then being 38 years old was most certainly old, if not ancient, for a boxer. Papp was 38 years old in 1964 as he was born in 1926. Giardello was 34 years old, which also made him no spring chicken in the business.

One man is old due to age and the other man is old because of too many hard fights. So it would have been an interesting matchup for sure--- but one where I think Papp would've been so overlooked, so underappreciated, and the champion living high off the hog that Papp would have pulled off the upset.

[klompton]

And again, your word salad is pointless because Papp never once proved he could beat anyone at the elite level in professional boxing. The closest he came was in his fight against domestic level George Aldridge who was world rated for one month by the WBA based on winning the British title when he fought Papp. None of Papp's other opponents were rated when he fought them. Aldridge himself had never beaten a world class fighter and despite this Papp went life and death with him and was busted up when he finally managed to stop Aldridge in the 15th round of their contest. Aldridge had already been stopped by Benvenuti much earlier and much easier and would lose two of next three fights on one round stoppages. Papp's professional record is simply smoke and mirrors and any supposition about what he MIGHT have done had he actually fought a world class opponent with deep experience is like wondering how Audley Harrison might have done had he gotten a shot at Lennox Lewis. Again, Giardello, in beating men like Rivero, Tiger, and Carter was beating men so far removed from the class of fighter that Papp had built his undefeated record on that its ridiculous to compare them. Papp literally snuck into the ratings by beating a guy who was only rated because he had won the British title against an unrated fighter and would only be rated for one month and never again. Despite that fact Papp somehow managed to stay in the ratings for two years (and even moved up) without ever facing another world rated fighter. Id say its lucky he never got a title shot because he would have been taken into deep waters and drowned and then his bizarre fanboys who dont understand context wouldnt be able to fantasize about what might have been.

[HomicideHenry]

I already said he was too old to have really done anything of major consequence (ie, title reign of substance) and that his success would have been largely dependent on the fact that Giardello was on the decline and his head in the clouds after winning the title--- as evident with his fights with the unranked Rivero after winning the title.

It still would have been a big IF whether he could have won at all, but I personally think that he could have won the first match but would have lost the rematch, had the two men fought.

We simply agree to disagree. I'm aware that his legacy is largely built on the infernal question, "What could have been?," rather than what he accomplished--- and that has took on mythic proportions a bit like Salamo Arouch, the guy who won hundreds of Nazi death camp boxing matches.

Still, Papp's place in boxing history is secured by the fact he was such a decorated amateur and that his career coming to an end is reminiscent of others like Teofilio Stevenson who were so brainwashed by communism they never turned professional.

I did watch a bit of a documentary on Papp, although it was in Hungarian so was difficult to understand everything, and it sounded like to me that he was looking for the one big score (ie, Giardello) to retire on but the Hungarian government prevented him from making serious money.

So who knows. Maybe Papp's motivation wasn't getting the title but getting the money, but I think the circumstances were just right that he could have pulled off the upset.

[Counter-puncher]

I did watch a bit of a documentary on Papp, although it was in Hungarian so was difficult to understand everything

'everything'???!!!

how much, exactly, would you say you DID understand? of this documentary in Hungarian?

And by 'understanding', do you mean what you normally do, IE if you draw a blank just fill it in with what you think would have been nice if it had happened?

[HomicideHenry]

I did watch a bit of a documentary on Papp, although it was in Hungarian so was difficult to understand everything

'everything'???!!!

how much, exactly, would you say you DID understand? of this documentary in Hungarian?

And by 'understanding', do you mean what you normally do, IE if you draw a blank just fill it in with what you think would have been nice if it had happened?

I'm not going to pursue this conversation any further because you're starting to come across rudely. I already said we agreed to disagree and that's the end of it.

[Onetimeonly]

I did watch a bit of a documentary on Papp, although it was in Hungarian so was difficult to understand everything

'everything'???!!!

how much, exactly, would you say you DID understand? of this documentary in Hungarian?

And by 'understanding', do you mean what you normally do, IE if you draw a blank just fill it in with what you think would have been nice if it had happened?

I'm not going to pursue this conversation any further because you're starting to come across rudely. I already said we agreed to disagree and that's the end of it.

Talk to him in Hungarian!

[margaret thatcher]

if someone criticizes lazslo, can we call it a 'papp smear'

[Boxingguru75]

Fun subject. I hardly think it’s comical to give a 3X Olympic Gold Medalist a decent shot against Giardello. Audrey Harrison hardly had those kind of credentials and certainly didn’t dominate the fights like Papp did. Nothing away from Giardello at all. He likely would have won. Papp is one of those guys that could have fought for the title before having ten fights. His amateur record is beyond impressive. Especially all the KOs.

[klompton]

Fun subject. I hardly think it’s comical to give a 3X Olympic Gold Medalist a decent shot against Giardello. Audrey Harrison hardly had those kind of credentials and certainly didn’t dominate the fights like Papp did. Nothing away from Giardello at all. He likely would have won. Papp is one of those guys that could have fought for the title before having ten fights. His amateur record is beyond impressive. Especially all the KOs.

Even Papp's amateur record is deceptive though. He came from a soviet amateur program that catered to their athletes. As an Olympian he was essentially a three round professional fighter who stayed in the system well into manhood with a huge amount of international experience under his belt while he was facing kids, literally, from nations that didnt even have national amateur programs nevermind the fact huge gap in experience Papp had by staying in the amateurs for over a decade. Being a 30 year old "amateur" (in name only) fighting kids who were 17, 18, 19, 20 years old for three two minute rounds does not translate to being able to beat an experienced world class professional over 15 rounds, much less one of the all time greats. Again, the ONLY fighter who was rated in the top ten when Papp faced him was George Aldridge. Thats scraping the absolute bottom of the barrel for contenders and Papp struggled greatly with him. To put that into greater perspective Nino Benvenuti was 24 years old, had 14 fights, and had never been more than 8 rounds when he knocked out Aldridge in 6 the year previous. Far too much is made of Papp's amateur record to begin with and it certainly doesnt translate to him being able to defeat an all time great champion over 15 rounds. The idea that he "could" have is born out by what exactly? By the fact that Peter Mueller was able to do it in his hometown after the brutal treatment Giardello received there?? That doesnt really say much. Ok, sure if Giardello was forced to go to Hungary during the winter time, denied access to sparring partners, forced to train in a gym with no heat, among other shenanigans then yes, Papp might have been able to beat him. But what exactly does that say about Papp?

[margaret thatcher]

his amateur record was great no doubt, he enjoyed loads of success from his early 20s, when most of the competitors who werent his age or older were younger only by a year or 2. his consistency was super impressive, even as a mature amateur its tough to win as repeatedly as he did, and 3 golds is a super rare achievment even though there have been many other 'career amateurs' before and after him

of course like any am though its a different task to prove yourself as an elite pro, he had his career cut short before he could ever do that. 15 rounds is a lot different from 3. from the limited footage ive seen of him pro, he certainly looks capable but nothing really jumps out like 'oh ya this guy absolutely shouldve won a world title'

forced to pick id have gone giardello