why did so many top amateurs fail in the Pros in heavyweight

[dominik]

Most People would agree that currently we don't have a strong HW era and still a lot of very good amateurs failed in the last years.

just look at the number of high Profile amateurs that failed in the last 10 years:


-Kretschmann (was a euro champ)
-Köber (olympic medalist)
-audley
-vidoz (olympic medalist)

other very good amateurs with not terrible but underwhelming careers so far include

-solis (several times Gold medalist)
-glazkov (he can still turn it around maybe but probably not)
-david Price

solid careers had
-povetkin (considering he was one of the most dominant amateurs ever it still is a dissapointment)
-s.ibragimov (had a nice career Holding the HW title for some fights but quiz after the klit fight)

there are some guys who had really good careers too of course but not many

-W Klit (some bad KO losses but still a HOF career)
-V klit
-haye
-chagaev (beat Savon as a Teenager in the amateurs and had a good albeit health issue riddled career in the pros)

-wilder and Joshua are olympic medalists who may or may not become really good Boxers so the hope is still there.

why did so many good amateurs fail even in that weak HW Division?

[ReggieDiggs]

The biggest part of the problem is there are more HW's. At one point there was only light heavyweight & heavyweight. Then in the 80's they came up with the super heavyweight division. Now there are twice as many successful amateur HW's coming in therefore it stands to reason more will fail cuz only a few can succeed.

[dominik]

The biggest part of the problem is there are more HW's. At one point there was only light heavyweight & heavyweight. Then in the 80's they came up with the super heavyweight division. Now there are twice as many successful amateur HW's coming in therefore it stands to reason more will fail cuz only a few can succeed.

but shouldn't that improve the Quality of the HW which might be better than 5 years ago but is still not really good?

also some of the Amateur HWs go to the cruiserweight (and fail there too like chakiev:))

[ReggieDiggs]

Idk that anything unusual is happening. I mean some fail, some succeed. You seemed to already have mentioned a good percentage who fail or who succeed, but yea when you got successful amateurs in 201 & 201+ largely coming into one division the odds of success in the pros is going down for successful amateurs. The fact that the #1 guy in the division is a successful amateur & something like half of the top ten were successful amateurs doesn't really support a larger fail rate than usual either.

[Tony1244]

Amateurs only fight for 9 or 10 minutes depending on if it's three 3 minute rounds or five 2 minute rounds. Turning pro (up to 36 min. of action) is like a sprinter running a marathon. It's a whole different race, if you will.

[ReggieDiggs]

Boxrec Rankings

#1 Wladimir, 1996 Olympic Gold Medalist
#2 Kubrat, 2008 Olympian
#3 Tyson, some amateur titles
#4 Bermane, many Canadian amateur titles
#5 Vyacheslav, 2008 Olympian
#6 Carlos, 2004 Olympian
#7 Alexander, 2004 Olympic Gold Medalist
#8 Dereck, UK amateur title
#9 Deontay, 2008 Olympic Bronze Medalist
#10 Tomasz, some amateur success, mostly in Poland

Out of the top 10, everyone won something of national importance @ worst & 6 went to the Olympics & 3 won medals, 2 won gold medals. I don't see much amateur failure happening here. Looks like amateur dominance to me. The most important part of this is the guy who's been the guy for awhile is a amateur Olympic Gold Medalist who no one seems able to beat for the last decade.

[cold187]

wladimir was 20 when he won gold

respect

[scallum]

There are way less heavyweights in the Amatuers Major Tournaments for kids and in General. If a Heavyweight wins Titles in the Amatuers , he likely has faced very limited opposition, especially in Usa. Even at sum of the Major Tournaments The Heavyweighs are getting only one match, 2 if very lucky. Other weights get 4 or 5 matches per tournament. I see Tournaments where 2 Heavyweights show up while other weights will have closer to 20 fighters show up. Just recently at Ringside World Championships 1500 fighters of all age n weights showed up and the 17-18 yr old heavyweight didn't get a fight because no other hw in his age group showed up

[scallum]

Plus parents of bigger kids got better options Football and Basketball. Chances are much better pursing a free 4 year ride at University rather than taking the chance with boxing. For most Parents choice is very simple as to which sports to guide kids to.

[ReggieDiggs]

What major US tournaments only get 2 guys in 201 &/or 201+? Never seen anything like that in a major tournament. Local, regional & even state sh!t okay I could see it & have seen it (in HW & other divisions, seems like the smallest divisions usually have the least participants to me), but major tournaments usually got feeder tournaments into it or based on rankings or w/e so seems unlikely.

[Dennis]

I agree with Reggie. My son Jordan fought in a lot of national tournaments. All of the open class senior level tournaments had plenty of competition for the 201 & 201+ classes. The champions typically had to compete 4 or 5 times during the week to win. Junior tournaments sometimes didn't have a lot of big kids.
Scallum is referring to a 17 & 18 year old class uncontested champ.

[ReggieDiggs]

Junior tournaments sometimes didn't have a lot of big kids.
Scallum is referring to a 17 & 18 year old class uncontested champ.

Ah okay yea I can see that. I personally just wouldn't view non-open tournaments as major tournaments might be the issue.

That Ringside tournament has a nutty amount of divisions last I looked. I bet that tournament has more uncontested champions or 1 fight to win a championship divisions than any tournament in perhaps the world & certainly in North America so its not surprising if its happening there. I'm fairly confident I could go pick out 10 random people off the street from age 12 to 40, get them legal to fight, take them to this tournament & @ least half of them would "win" a uncontested title or fight for a title.

[reggaereggae]

Boxrec Rankings

#1 Wladimir, 1996 Olympic Gold Medalist
#2 Kubrat, 2008 Olympian
#3 Tyson, some amateur titles
#4 Bermane, many Canadian amateur titles
#5 Vyacheslav, 2008 Olympian
#6 Carlos, 2004 Olympian
#7 Alexander, 2004 Olympic Gold Medalist
#8 Dereck, UK amateur title
#9 Deontay, 2008 Olympic Bronze Medalist
#10 Tomasz, some amateur success, mostly in Poland

Out of the top 10, everyone won something of national importance @ worst & 6 went to the Olympics & 3 won medals, 2 won gold medals. I don't see much amateur failure happening here. Looks like amateur dominance to me. The most important part of this is the guy who's been the guy for awhile is a amateur Olympic Gold Medalist who no one seems able to beat for the last decade.

.

You on first name terms with all the top 10? Lol
Seriously though, the OP kind of defeats the original argument - it slows many top pro heavies have a good / excellent am background. Some fail - as they do in every weight cat. Another question would be; how many top heavies did NOT have a good amateur career

[HomicideHenry]

You on first name terms with all the top 10? Lol
Seriously though, the OP kind of defeats the original argument - it slows many top pro heavies have a good / excellent am background. Some fail - as they do in every weight cat. Another question would be; how many top heavies did NOT have a good amateur career

Jack Dempsey
John L. Sullivan
Jim Jeffries
Luther McCarty
Harry Wills
Sam Langford
Joe Jeanette
Sam McVey
Tommy Burns
Jack Johnson
Jess Willard
Archie Moore

The list really goes on and on and on...

[reggaereggae]

You on first name terms with all the top 10? Lol
Seriously though, the OP kind of defeats the original argument - it slows many top pro heavies have a good / excellent am background. Some fail - as they do in every weight cat. Another question would be; how many top heavies did NOT have a good amateur career

Jack Dempsey
John L. Sullivan
Jim Jeffries
Luther McCarty
Harry Wills
Sam Langford
Joe Jeanette
Sam McVey
Tommy Burns
Jack Johnson
Jess Willard
Archie Moore

The list really goes on and on and on...

.

Well I meant anyone still alive??!!

I was generally referring to the last 10 years or at least more recent times

[scallum]

What major US tournaments only get 2 guys in 201 &/or 201+? Never seen anything like that in a major tournament. Local, regional & even state sh!t okay I could see it & have seen it (in HW & other divisions, seems like the smallest divisions usually have the least participants to me), but major tournaments usually got feeder tournaments into it or based on rankings or w/e so seems unlikely.

National Jr Championships,National Jr Golden Gloves Championships,National Pal Jr Division. Ringside Jr and Youth Championships all had 2 or fewer participants at Hw over the last few years. I just dont make stuff up I was have been to all these tournaments over the years and actually been at the Draws for the fights. In Usa ranks are extremely slim for the bigger kids, Have been to few Tournaments and didn't get a fight because kid was bigger n no opposition.

[scallum]

I agree with Reggie. My son Jordan fought in a lot of national tournaments. All of the open class senior level tournaments had plenty of competition for the 201 & 201+ classes. The champions typically had to compete 4 or 5 times during the week to win. Junior tournaments sometimes didn't have a lot of big kids.
Scallum is referring to a 17 & 18 year old class uncontested champ.

When your son was at Jr and Youth level where there more Hw's. Is it just a recent thing of bigger kids getting getting little to no opposition

[ReggieDiggs]

What major US tournaments only get 2 guys in 201 &/or 201+? Never seen anything like that in a major tournament. Local, regional & even state sh!t okay I could see it & have seen it (in HW & other divisions, seems like the smallest divisions usually have the least participants to me), but major tournaments usually got feeder tournaments into it or based on rankings or w/e so seems unlikely.

National Jr Championships,National Jr Golden Gloves Championships,National Pal Jr Division. Ringside Jr and Youth Championships all had 2 or fewer participants at Hw over the last few years. I just dont make stuff up I was have been to all these tournaments over the years and actually been at the Draws for the fights. In Usa ranks are extremely slim for the bigger kids, Have been to few Tournaments and didn't get a fight because kid was bigger n no opposition.

I don't consider any non-open tournament as a major tournament like I said. A major tournament to me is an open/senior level tournament that either involves feeder tournaments or is rankings based.

[Crease]

Amateur boxing is completely different to professional boxing, ask Audley Harrison about that. Audley had a fantastic amateur career - winning the Gold Medal at the Commonwealth Games and at The Olympics and he turned professional widely publicizing himself and declaring his "dream" of becoming a World Heavyweight Champion. Obviously he hasn't succeeded.

And people can point to a few of the reasons why - he doesn't like to engage in a slug fest, he tends to get KO'd which suggests a weak chin. But I would say that Audley is a classic example of why being a great amateur is no guarantee for professional success.

I would also point to the fact that he fought in two Prizefighter tournaments and won them both (because the 3-round game is right up his street, as it was back in in his amateur days). The unfortunate fact for him was that his style just wasn't suited to the longer and more precise professional game.

[ReggieDiggs]

Amateur boxing is completely different to professional boxing, ask Audley Harrison about that.

It is, but than again it isn't. Look @ all the top guys today. A huge percentage have come from successful amateur careers. 4 of the top 10 p4p (Floyd, Wlad, Andre, GGG), 3 of the top 5 p4p, are Olympians which represents the pinnacle of amateur success. If amateur & pro were THAT different I think we'd see more non-amateurs having success & thats a rarity to find a guy w/o any amateur fights having success. Its certainly not true that everyone with a successful amateur career will have a successful pro career, but the odds of becoming a successful pro seem to go up with a successful amateur career.

[Bodyshot3]

Vidoz and Harrison both left it too late age wise......that may prove to be the case with Price as well, but let us try and be fair and say he remains unfinished business/a work in progress and we should wait to see what Tommy Brooks can do there.

Harrison compounded things by thinking he knew the game inside out whilst actually being a total novice; picking his own fights, trainers and effectively self-managing and promoting himself.

Pete Rademacher was arguably the silliest/bravest and most unsuccessful of the lot.....straight in with Patterson on his debut for the world heavyweight title with a predicatable caning for his efforts. Then a comeback against Zora Folley. Properly bonkers!

Maybe Pete just wanted to cash in on his gold and never really wanted to have a long career as a pro......somewhat bizarrely it all ended-up with a points win against Bobo Olson in Honolulu...which I seriously hope was just a glorified exhibition.

[pound per pound]

Most People would agree that currently we don't have a strong HW era and still a lot of very good amateurs failed in the last years.

just look at the number of high Profile amateurs that failed in the last 10 years:


-Kretschmann (was a euro champ)
-Köber (olympic medalist)
-audley
-vidoz (olympic medalist)

other very good amateurs with not terrible but underwhelming careers so far include

-solis (several times Gold medalist)
-glazkov (he can still turn it around maybe but probably not)
-david Price

solid careers had
-povetkin (considering he was one of the most dominant amateurs ever it still is a dissapointment)
-s.ibragimov (had a nice career Holding the HW title for some fights but quiz after the klit fight)

there are some guys who had really good careers too of course but not many

-W Klit (some bad KO losses but still a HOF career)
-V klit
-haye
-chagaev (beat Savon as a Teenager in the amateurs and had a good albeit health issue riddled career in the pros)

-wilder and Joshua are olympic medalists who may or may not become really good Boxers so the hope is still there.

why did so many good amateurs fail even in that weak HW Division?

The division isn't weak or strong. This division is full of lots of big men who can hit. These days one loss can ruin a career. This is why it's tough to make it.

[Othro]

Could be that the sports are scored complete different as well

[dwise26]

A good amateur career doesn't equal success as a pro. Look at Henry Tillman and John Bray. A lot of times amateurs are working to break amateur habits to be successful pros. In the end no one knows how an amateur is going to react once they get on the pro level. Current American Heavyweights Charles Martin, Dominic Breazeale, Deontay Wilder, Gerald Washington, Bryant Jennings all have limited amateur experiences but so far transitioned well in the pros.

[dempseyfire]

There are way less heavyweights in the Amatuers Major Tournaments for kids and in General. If a Heavyweight wins Titles in the Amatuers , he likely has faced very limited opposition, especially in Usa. Even at sum of the Major Tournaments The Heavyweighs are getting only one match, 2 if very lucky. Other weights get 4 or 5 matches per tournament. I see Tournaments where 2 Heavyweights show up while other weights will have closer to 20 fighters show up. Just recently at Ringside World Championships 1500 fighters of all age n weights showed up and the 17-18 yr old heavyweight didn't get a fight because no other hw in his age group showed up

Bingo. Even at the world level the HW and Super HW (especially) divisions are pi$$ poor . . when the depth is so weak those at the top will usually not become quality product (the Klitschkos were Amateurs 20 YEARS AGO . . Wlad won his Olympic medal the same year Tyson got out of prison; this is a completely different era we're talking about) . . just look at the 2012 Olympics . . the Super HW matches were atrocious.

In terms of accomplishments Povetkin was the most decorated Super HW champ ever . .but can anyone imagine him ever having that level of dominance even in the early 90s? No way . . .