Prime Foreman VS. Prime Mike Tyson

Thinking_Hard · Post by **Thinking_Hard** » 05 Jun 2004, 09:25

Prime Foreman VS. Prime Mike Tyson who wins?

dan1030 · Post by **dan1030** » 05 Jun 2004, 13:52

Foreman

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 07 Jun 2004, 13:58

Foreman would crush him. Tyson's style is perfect for Foreman.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 07 Jun 2004, 15:24

Foreman by KO.

I always felt that Foreman would intimidate Tyson.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 11 Jun 2004, 10:10

Tyson by early ko.

Tyson too quick, too powerful and yes, too strong.

If Lyle could put Foreman down, Tyson would keep him there.

harley_man · Post by **harley_man** » 11 Jun 2004, 10:26

We're talking prime here, right?

If so, the prime Tyson would be a much meaner, faster, more dangerous opponent than the Frazier Foreman faced. That annihilation went a long way to securing Big George's aura of invincibility.

If the '86-'88 Tyson (the tourney Tyson) met the ascending Foreman, there wouldn't be that intimidation a historical Foreman would have brought to a '90s fight. Tyson would have come in with his own sense of invincibility, as would George. It would have been a phenomenal collision.

Tyson absolutely had the power to KO George and vice versa. But, if George did what he did against Frazier, Tyson may not have had the luxury of brazenly walking through punches (some of the '80s and '90s big guys landed great shots). If ever someone was going to one-punch KO Tyson, who had a great chin, Foreman was it.

No way this goes this distance. If they fought 10 times in some kind of Groundhog Day time warp, I say Foreman by KO 7 out of 10 times.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 11 Jun 2004, 12:07

knockout artist wrote:Tyson by early ko.

Tyson too quick, too powerful and yes, too strong.

If Lyle could put Foreman down, Tyson would keep him there.

Disagree. Lyle was BIG heavyweight, whereas Foreman would've had a major height and reach advantage over Tyson. And note that prime Tyson's win over the past-his-prime, out-for-2-years Holmes says nothing about how he would've fared vs. prime Foreman, who had the same kind of aura of invincibility as prime Tyson, but had it in spades, along with the imposing physical presence and Listonesque surliness (which George deliberatley cultivated from his sometime mentor) to sow the seeds of self-doubt in Tyson's mind. And with Tyson, the classic front-runner, it's always been more about the mental game than the physical assets when he's been in with a truly great fighter.

I'm not saying he wouldn't have landed a few big hots, possibly even put big George down - but against Lyle, Foreman took his best, got up off the deck and blasted him out. This would not have been like those 7 grueling rounds in the African heat vs. Ali, where Foreman's workrate and Ali's continual laser-like left-right combos wore George down.

It's well-known that Tyson was afraid (and I mean truly afraid, not just wary) to face Foreman even during Foreman's comeback. Tyson had watched Frazier's fights and especially Foreman/Frazier over and over on tape and apparently (and quite correctly) seen himself as a younger, slightly beefier (but even shorter) version of Smokin' Joe, and come to the conclusion that he had nothing to beat George with. In other words, Foreman was already in Tyson's head even before he mounted his comeback.

I won't go so far as to say that Tyson would've had no chance - especially in his prime he always had that puncher's chance - but Foreman already knew how to beat smaller guys like Tyson, whereas Tyson never met anything approaching a prime Foreman, and was soundly beaten while still in his prime by Douglas (spare me the lame "but he no longer had Cus by his side" excuses), and twice by Holyfield, who was considered more past his prime than Tyson when they met, after his 3 wars with Bowe. Prime Foreman was only beaten by the greatest heavyweight who ever lived, and only by way of one of the most unconventional, brilliantly executed pieces of boxing strategy ever seen.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 11 Jun 2004, 12:13

Eric the Viking wrote:Prime Foreman was only beaten by the greatest heavyweight who ever lived

I don't remember Joe Louis ever fighting Big George

harley_man · Post by **harley_man** » 11 Jun 2004, 12:28

Eric the Viking wrote:
knockout artist wrote:Tyson by early ko.

Tyson too quick, too powerful and yes, too strong.

If Lyle could put Foreman down, Tyson would keep him there.
Disagree. Lyle was BIG heavyweight, whereas Foreman would've had a major height and reach advantage over Tyson. And note that prime Tyson's win over the past-his-prime, out-for-2-years Holmes says nothing about how he would've fared vs. prime Foreman, who had the same kind of aura of invincibility as prime Tyson, but had it in spades, along with the imposing physical presence and Listonesque surliness (which George deliberatley cultivated from his sometime mentor) to sow the seeds of self-doubt in Tyson's mind. And with Tyson, the classic front-runner, it's always been more about the mental game than the physical assets when he's been in with a truly great fighter.

I'm not saying he wouldn't have landed a few big hots, possibly even put big George down - but against Lyle, Foreman took his best, got up off the deck and blasted him out. This would not have been like those 7 grueling rounds in the African heat vs. Ali, where Foreman's workrate and Ali's continual laser-like left-right combos wore George down.

It's well-known that Tyson was afraid (and I mean truly afraid, not just wary) to face Foreman even during Foreman's comeback. Tyson had watched Frazier's fights and especially Foreman/Frazier over and over on tape and apparently (and quite correctly) seen himself as a younger, slightly beefier (but even shorter) version of Smokin' Joe, and come to the conclusion that he had nothing to beat George with. In other words, Foreman was already in Tyson's head even before he mounted his comeback.

I won't go so far as to say that Tyson would've had no chance - especially in his prime he always had that puncher's chance - but Foreman already knew how to beat smaller guys like Tyson, whereas Tyson never met anything approaching a prime Foreman, and was soundly beaten while still in his prime by Douglas (spare me the lame "but he no longer had Cus by his side" excuses), and twice by Holyfield, who was considered more past his prime than Tyson when they met, after his 3 wars with Bowe. Prime Foreman was only beaten by the greatest heavyweight who ever lived, and only by way of one of the most unconventional, brilliantly executed pieces of boxing strategy ever seen.

Yes, I'd buy the Tyson-afraid-of-Foreman argument you've made previously, but only in terms of Tyson's knowledge of the historical Foreman.

If we could imagine them as contemporary up-and-comers, say both out of the same Olympic trials, instead of a dozen years apart, then Foreman would have been building the same sort of reputation we saw from Tyson - at the same time. This would, of course, have led to the kind of anticipation Foreman-Ali generated. Would Tyson really have been afraid of George were they contemporaries? Cus wouldn't have been always whispering in his ear how he had no chance against a Foreman if that were the case.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 11 Jun 2004, 14:06

Regardless of whether Tyson was afriad or not, Foreman had a great jab and uppercut. Add in his phenomenal power, and Tyson is toast. Tyson would get hurt in the 1st, which would put him into a shell and he'd get jabbed and body-shotted constantly until leaving permnamently in the 6th or 7th.

harley_man · Post by **harley_man** » 11 Jun 2004, 14:27

dempseyfire wrote:Regardless of whether Tyson was afriad or not, Foreman had a great jab and uppercut. Add in his phenomenal power, and Tyson is toast. Tyson would get hurt in the 1st, which would put him into a shell and he'd get jabbed and body-shotted constantly until leaving permnamently in the 6th or 7th.

Got any examples of a prime Tyson going into a shell?

If you go as late as the first Razor Ruddock fight, which I'd argue is not prime Tyson anyway, Tyson swallowed some monster shots from a guy with very good KO power. Now, Ruddock was by that time totally one dimensional (worst thing to happen to that guy was to discover he could punch - goodbye boxing skills) and is a poor comparison to prime George - my apologies, boxing gods. Regardless, Tyson had to have some questions about his ability to withstand those shots, dispersed though they were over rounds. But he seemed content to wade back in time and again.

It seems to me it wasn't until Holyfield that Tyson wilted under pressure. A younger, undefeated Tyson might not have had that mind set against a contemporary Foreman.

Thoughts?

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 11 Jun 2004, 18:13

harley_man wrote:Got any examples of a prime Tyson going into a shell?

Tyson has got a very good chin - no question that it takes sustained punishment to take him out. But I think the "going into a shell" thing is irrelevant - Frazier certainly didn't go into a shell vs. Foreman - he kept getting up and Foreman kept knocking him down. Frazier had never been KOed before. Granite-chinned George Chuvalo was only KOed twice in nearly 100 heavyweight fights, against many of the top guys of the era - his two KO losses were to Frazier (TKO4) and Foreman (KO3).

Roll With The Punches · Post by **Roll With The Punches** » 12 Jun 2004, 04:14

Foreman is toooo strong

when was Foreman ever pushed backwards??

Tyson has been made to go backwards and couldnt fight doing so

Foreman KO

dan1030 · Post by **dan1030** » 12 Jun 2004, 14:16

harley_man wrote:
Got any examples of a prime Tyson going into a shell?

Not exactly a "shell," but his agression sure backed off a lot in the first round and a half or so against Tucker, after eating a few hard shots (from a guy who punched nowhere near as hard as Foreman), and before Tucker broke his hand in the 2nd. He still moved forward, but not with his usual 1987-level of pressure. The fact that Tyson could only really fight moving forward is exactly what sets him up so poorly vs. George.

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 12 Jun 2004, 15:19

Tyson has this rep for battering taller fighters, which he certainly was very good at, but simply being tall isn't necessarily playing into Tyson's hands. I too am of the opinion that Foreman would blast Tyson out of there just like he did to Frazier and here's why: Foreman did not cover up or back off when someone tried to bring heat to him, he shoved them back and then unloaded himself, that's what he did to Frazier and that's what he'd do to Tyson. Foreman's the bigger bully.

Richie Aprille rules · Post by **Richie Aprille rules** » 12 Jun 2004, 16:19

mrbassie wrote:Tyson has this rep for battering taller fighters, which he certainly was very good at, but simply being tall isn't necessarily playing into Tyson's hands. I too am of the opinion that Foreman would blast Tyson out of there just like he did to Frazier and here's why: Foreman did not cover up or back off when someone tried to bring heat to him, he shoved them back and then unloaded himself, that's what he did to Frazier and that's what he'd do to Tyson. Foreman's the bigger bully.

Agreed.

Roll With The Punches · Post by **Roll With The Punches** » 13 Jun 2004, 03:46

i dont think anyone would beat a prime Foreman by coming at him.......but i'd give Tyson the best chance

Thinking_Hard · Post by **Thinking_Hard** » 13 Jun 2004, 05:24

Both in their prime in age via skill, at which point they were at their best. No fear, or mentality(except for fighting heart). Brain for brain, fist for fist and skill for skill. No illegal shots. No bull, just clean "boxing".

Jukejar · Post by **Jukejar** » 14 Jun 2004, 11:25

Hard to discuss Tyson without bringing in mentality. I would lean toward the prime George winning via KO, but the one attribute that bothers this prediction the most is Tyson's overall speed, especially in his prime. If Tyson starts the fight with plenty of head movement and using his superior hand & foot speed effectively, he might keep the lumbering George from landing the necessary shots. Unless Foreman backs him up or significantly hurts him, Tyson's not going to fold, and that's big trouble for George. And Tyson has the power to take anyone out. But, despite these thoughts, I would have to bet on George to pick himself off the canvas and pull it out via 6th round TKO.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 15 Jun 2004, 18:44

Tyson by KO EASILY. Foreman is so damn overrated its ridiculous. Foremans record is built on beating old ex-light heavies. Tysons record is built on destroying guys twice his size and making it look easy. Its just a good thing they never met during their comebacks or Tyson would have gone to jail for manslaughter.

Thinking_Hard · Post by **Thinking_Hard** » 16 Jun 2004, 00:16

I know it's hard to not discuss Tyson without bringing in mentality Juke.
We have all seen the "acts" Mike Tyson is capable of via TV, news and the media. But It is not the man I wish discussed(though you may, I am in no way in control on this board and you are free to say whatever you will), but more, the fighter he could have been, dropping that attitude he is so famous for. Or more likely infamous for. This corresponds with Foreman's attitude to when he was young though he was no where near a bad a case in my opinion. So back to the subject gentleman, so now with that in mind. Does that sway anyones opinion? Or even dropping mentality, does Foreman still have "The Upper Hand"?

Jukejar · Post by **Jukejar** » 16 Jun 2004, 03:00

In trying to imagine the match-up in a strict vacuum, where the 3rd deminsion plays no role, where each is in his physical prime and maximizes their ability to the fullest, I first thought of how denying Foreman the psychological advantage would sway the fight in Tyson's favor--but then I remembered how many of Tyson's early foes were beaten before the bell rang, even some of the reasonably good ones. Bonecrusher Smith comes to mind. He was out-psyched and just tried to survive, never using the offensive weapons he possessed until the last seconds of the fight when he landed a shot that stopped Tyson in his tracks. If he had landed that shot in the third round, he might have sstarted a fight. The point of that reference is that if Bonecrusher Smith--whose size and ponderous style could loosely be compared with a young Foreman--actually fought a prime Tyson without being psyched out, I think he could have at least held his own.

So after giving this way too much thought, I still pick Foreman to win.

[by the way, I don't agree that Foreman's rep was based on light heavies, unless you think his rep was built against Goyo Peralta. Both men have plenty of walking stiffs added to their records, but I think that Frazier, Chuvalo, Lyle, and Norton would all be challenging fights for Tyson--and Foreman beat them all convincingly (not to mention solid heavies like Dennis, LeDoux, Wepner, Wallace and others). ]

Jukejar · Post by **Jukejar** » 16 Jun 2004, 03:01

In trying to imagine the match-up in a strict vacuum, where the 3rd deminsion plays no role, where each is in his physical prime and maximizes their ability to the fullest, I first thought of how denying Foreman the psychological advantage would sway the fight in Tyson's favor--but then I remembered how many of Tyson's early foes were beaten before the bell rang, even some of the reasonably good ones. Bonecrusher Smith comes to mind. He was out-psyched and just tried to survive, never using the offensive weapons he possessed until the last seconds of the fight when he landed a shot that stopped Tyson in his tracks. If he had landed that shot in the third round, he might have sstarted a fight. The point of that reference is that if Bonecrusher Smith--whose size and ponderous style could loosely be compared with a young Foreman--actually fought a prime Tyson without being psyched out, I think he could have at least held his own.

So after giving this way too much thought, I still pick Foreman to win.

[by the way, I don't agree that Foreman's rep was based on light heavies, unless you think his rep was built against Goyo Peralta. Both men have plenty of walking stiffs added to their records, but I think that Frazier, Chuvalo, Lyle, and Norton would all be challenging fights for Tyson--and Foreman beat them all convincingly (not to mention solid heavies like Dennis, LeDoux, Wepner, Wallace and others). ]

Thinking_Hard · Post by **Thinking_Hard** » 16 Jun 2004, 03:55

Yes I too believe both men here scared several of their opponents in to submission before the bell had tolled. Intimidation is an attribute to any fighters reprotoire(I am unsure as to how to spell this word). Who could not be intimidated by the size and strength of these two men(in their prime)? I would say, few(if any, LOL, except for Ali and Lewis but thats off the subject). Which makes them to me, some of the most exciting fighters of both of their times. Both of these men were stopped on occassion and both have their flaws. But who would adapt to the other(first)? Both styles are made to play in spades against each others style. An interesting match up indeed.

In ending just another question and a thought for all that it's worth.

Prime Foreman VS. Prime Mike Tyson

Prime Foreman VS. Prime Mike Tyson

Tyson easy