Interesting article: GGG regressing?

[jezzamundo]

Gennady Golovkin is my favourite active boxer. I was recently Googling him and found this article:

http://www.badlefthook.com/2014/10/17/6 ... nalysis-ko

I found it interesting. Until the KO, I was relatively unimpressed with his performance against Geale, although I think that was somewhat due to GGG's lack of respect for Geale's power - he was willing to leave himself open in order to land his own punch, which turned out to be a winning strategy.

Against Rubio I hope to see GGG using more of his boxing skills and gradually wearing him down, rather than trying to bomb him out early.

[ikorolev]

I agree. Here is a full 2007 Khomitsky fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESrBE_t-qvY

Golovkin moves his head, steps aside, etc. showing good defence while effectively attacking and stopping a good tough journeyman who later beat Martin Murray twice (even though he was robbed in U.K.) Golovkin was a formed fighter at that time and was able to fight Sturm, Abraham, Pavlik, Williams, Martinez.

The change of style comes from Abel Sanchez philosophy of fan-friendly style. I hate all this "Mexican style" talk before the Rubio fight. I am afraid, Sanchez and Golovkin are planning to stand and trade with Rubio. This will still likely result in stoppage by Golovkin, but voluntarily taking head shots from somebody like Rubio is a bad idea and will result in a shorter career.

[Impractical Poster]

Interesting.

Golovkin reminds me a lot of Kostya Tszyu. A lot of similarities between them. Ultimately, Kostya fell in love with his power and his technical skills seemed to regress during his career. He was an outstanding boxer early on. But then I remembered his fight with Jesse James Leija towards the end of his career. While Jesse was definitely no slouch, he really wasn't supposed to be on Kostya's level. Yet, until the KO, I felt he was out boxing Kostya.

I kinda feel like Genady may be heading down the same path. I hope not. We will see. As is, I believe Genady is the man around his weight. The only person I see competing with him is Ward at this point in time.

[Cherrybomb]

LOL!

This article is bullsh!t from beginning to end. The funniest thing is that the gif's are proving the opposite of the authors point. Click bait article if you ask me.

[crow]

All boxers gain weight (and power) with age, and lose speed as consequence.
They become easier to hit, but punch heavier as compared to their younger days.

The article conveniently omits to mention this.

GGG is already at an age where most great middleweights had already ended their careers. So of course he's not going to look untouchable.

Remember the war Hagler had with Mugabi, and how it inspired Leonard to finally face him.

[ikorolev]

All boxers gain weight (and power) with age, and lose speed as consequence.
They become easier to hit, but punch heavier as compared to their younger days.

The article conveniently omits to mention this.

GGG is already at an age where most great middleweights had already ended their careers. So of course he's not going to look untouchable.

Remember the war Hagler had with Mugabi, and how it inspired Leonard to finally face him.

That's true, but if a trainer is trying to make a fighter more "fan friendly", doesn't he work more on offense at the expense of defensive skills ?

[Datsue]

^ That's an interesting point, crow.

The economics of modern boxing means that you don't actually get a you-know top-class competitive fight made until you're probably well into your athletic peak. People's athletic peaks are lasting a remarkable deal longer (for all sorts of reasons I'm not gonna touch on here) these days but it's probably worth noting that unless you're a Japanese teenager/dirt-poor Latin flyweight your traditional "boxing" athletic peak is gonna be well past by the time you get to make any impact on the mainstream sports fan's consciousness.

If you ever get to do that, like.

PS: FWIW, having had a glut of Golovkin videos lately, I definitely think he's squaring up more, but whether that's 'cos he's pulling a Tszyu pre-Phillips "I'm gonna just KO these motherfuckers" or 'cos he doesn't feel threatened by his opposition or he wants to attract more American TV coverage, who knows?

The latter isn't that unlikely; remember (post the second Pacquiao fight) how Marquez stopped trying to avoid most of the incoming & land single counters & started sitting down on every shot & going out of his way to take dudes out? & it worked for him (in a monetary sense)...

[ikorolev]

^ That's an interesting point, crow.

The economics of modern boxing means that you don't actually get a you-know top-class competitive fight made until you're probably well into your athletic peak. People's athletic peaks are lasting a remarkable deal longer (for all sorts of reasons I'm not gonna touch on here) these days but it's probably worth noting that unless you're a Japanese teenager/dirt-poor Latin flyweight your traditional "boxing" athletic peak is gonna be well past by the time you get to make any impact on the mainstream sports fan's consciousness.

If you ever get to do that, like.

PS: FWIW, having had a glut of Golovkin videos lately, I definitely think he's squaring up more, but whether that's 'cos he's pulling a Tszyu pre-Phillips "I'm gonna just KO these motherfuckers" or 'cos he doesn't feel threatened by his opposition or he wants to attract more American TV coverage, who knows?

The latter isn't that unlikely; remember (post the second Pacquiao fight) how Marquez stopped trying to avoid most of the incoming & land single counters & started sitting down on every shot & going out of his way to take dudes out? & it worked for him (in a monetary sense)...

Golovkin never relied on single counters and was always entertaining. He didn't need to be made more fan friendly on the expense of his health.

[crusader]

Interesting article, but I wonder why so many people on that site laud the author's use of evidence when that evidence is simply a few strategically chosen clips of the Rosado fight, a few seconds of GGG moving around and not punching while Khomitsky throws tentative jabs, and GGG pounding Stevens.

The main criticism of GGG that I agree with is his tendency to move back and simply cover up without much head movement when someone attacks. He did this in the Rosado and Stevens fights, and most notably to me the Adama fight, where he spent a better part of the 5th on the move while Adama pressed him. Opponents are clearly reluctant to attack because they put themselves in range of GGG's very powerful attack, but when they have found the courage they've generally been relatively successful. However, the author seems to think this is an indication of significant regression on GGG's part, but he has reacted similarly throughout his career. There may have been more head movement earlier, but his tendency to not punch back when opponents sustain an attack is longstanding and the Khomitsky gifs don't show otherwise.

The author also seems to be reaching too far with some of the other points and the evidence he uses to support them. For example, he takes the gif of GGG beating Stevens up along the ropes to be a sign of regression simply because he's standing in front of Stevens and not bobbing around like he did in the Khomitsky clip. Not only is the an incomparable situation because Khomitsky was in the middle of the ring and punching while Stevens was just covering up on the ropes, but I don't see how bobbing around in the latter case would've added potency to GGG's attack. The author criticizes GGG for standing in front of Stevens in that clip, but I don't see what is wrong with standing in front of someone and punching when you seem to take their shots well, they show few signs of being an offensive threat, and you're clearly still measuring them and not just swinging carelessly. Finally, the author mentions that the Stevens gif is evidence of GGG not being able to move around an opponent around effectively, but why would GGG want to move around an opponent when they're covering on the ropes and providing ample opportunities for him?

I believe the author also exaggerates Rosado's success and acts as if the gifs are generally reflective of what the latter did in rounds 4,5, and 6, when they were largely his only moments of note over a 7 round fight in which he was dominated, badly busted up, and stopped. Very few fighters, even those who are dominant champions, are going to go through each bout without getting nailed at some point, yet when it happens to GGG people act like it's a huge deal. The author also presents the clips of Rosado getting in some sneaky shots while he's near the ropes, but presents no good evidence that GGG being hit with those shots indicates regression. When have opponents comparable to Rosado attacked in a comparable manner in the past and how did GGG react then? The author relies heavily on the Khomitsky clips, but all the latter does offensively is throw a few tentative jabs.

Additionally, while the author repeatedly mentions GGG's defensive holes, he fails to note that 1) GGG's opponents don't have a high connect rate against him and 2) that putting someone into a shell with a potent offense is a form of defense. People seem to focus largely on reactive defensive, but proactive defense should be valued just as much. It may well be that through a greater focus on offense one gets hit less, and isn't defense largely about minimizing how much you're hit?

[ikorolev]

Nice analysis above, but have you watched the full Khomitsky fight ? In some packets, Khomitsky was throwing much more than just tentative jabs. He is a good puncher, and he managed to land some of his power punches making Golovkin sort of mad and unleashing back big combinations. Golovkin was as effective with his offence against Khomitsky as he was against his recent opponents, but he wasn't neglecting his defense that much and quite often he was moving to a side after landing his punches which he wasn't doing in his recent fights.

[crusader]

Nice analysis above, but have you watched the full Khomitsky fight ? In some packets, Khomitsky was throwing much more than just tentative jabs. He is a good puncher, and he managed to land some of his power punches making Golovkin sort of mad and unleashing back big combinations. Golovkin was as effective with his offence against Khomitsky as he was against his recent opponents, but he wasn't neglecting his defense that much and quite often he was moving to a side after landing his punches which he wasn't doing in his recent fights.

I've seen the entire fight and I think the tendency to shut down offensively when attacked is apparent there too, but I was responding mainly to the only pre-regression clips the author posted, which show little more than posturing and jabbing. It's suggested in the article that GGG moving back without punching is a new phenomenon, but I think he's had that tendency for a while and it's even apparent in the evidence of that not being the case.

I think the clearest case of regression from the Khomitsky bout would be GGG's now less frequent head movement, but I'm not remotely convinced that someone who shortly after went the distance with and lost multiple rounds to Ian Gardner and Mehdi Bouadla is superior to the fighter who is blowing through Geales and Macklins.

[ikorolev]

To be fair, Ian Gardner went distance with Abraham too and his only KO loss is to Dawson. Also, who knows what instructions trainers were giving to Gennady. For example, in Khomitsky fight, his trainer was telling him to calm down and not kill the guy.

[crow]

That's true, but if a trainer is trying to make a fighter more "fan friendly", doesn't he work more on offense at the expense of defensive skills ?

Depends.

PBF went 10 rds with Hatton, and got hit for 30 min.

Pac went 4 min with Hatton, and got barely hit.

Which one would you rather be ?

GGG is at a stage where he gets hit more often, WHATEVER his style of boxing.
He has always been a KO machine, and his team decided to develop this.

I suspect the time he faces a real dangerous puncher, the boxer-puncher GGG will resurface.
Until then, it will be awe, shock and destruction.

[jezzamundo]

Nice analysis above, but have you watched the full Khomitsky fight ? In some packets, Khomitsky was throwing much more than just tentative jabs. He is a good puncher, and he managed to land some of his power punches making Golovkin sort of mad and unleashing back big combinations. Golovkin was as effective with his offence against Khomitsky as he was against his recent opponents, but he wasn't neglecting his defense that much and quite often he was moving to a side after landing his punches which he wasn't doing in his recent fights.

I've seen the entire fight and I think the tendency to shut down offensively when attacked is apparent there too, but I was responding mainly to the only pre-regression clips the author posted, which show little more than posturing and jabbing. It's suggested in the article that GGG moving back without punching is a new phenomenon, but I think he's had that tendency for a while and it's even apparent in the evidence of that not being the case.

I think the clearest case of regression from the Khomitsky bout would be GGG's now less frequent head movement, but I'm not remotely convinced that someone who shortly after went the distance with and lost multiple rounds to Ian Gardner and Mehdi Bouadla is superior to the fighter who is blowing through Geales and Macklins.

Nice discussion. I strongly agree with the last paragraph - GGG of today would likely KO both Gardner and Bouadla, Sanchez has undoubtedly improved him as an offensive fighter and he is probably fitter and stronger now than he has ever been. To be honest I never thought that GGG was particularly good defensively and agree that his offence is his best form of defense. I just felt that he was fighting impatiently against Geale and hope to see him trying to be a bit more patient and skilful in the future, starting with Rubio.

[polecateddy]

He's bound to get his Tyszu-Phillips moment soon.

[Blodhemn]

He'd have to move up in weight for a Philips moment. Even then, GGG is used to fighting bigger fighters even in the amateurs and back then he was more crude and relied on physicality to KO or simply beat bigger foes. He's got the tools now to outbox foes when he moves up in weight. GGG vs Froch... just who is the better boxer?

Regressing? If TKO3 in the latest fight against his best opponent to date is regressing, then it looks like GGG's critics are also his biggest admirers, because that's still some skill. If he's got the ability to stop Geale in 3, imagine how good he could've been if he hadn't already "regressed".

[Butterbean]

Nice analysis above, but have you watched the full Khomitsky fight ? In some packets, Khomitsky was throwing much more than just tentative jabs. He is a good puncher, and he managed to land some of his power punches making Golovkin sort of mad and unleashing back big combinations. Golovkin was as effective with his offence against Khomitsky as he was against his recent opponents, but he wasn't neglecting his defense that much and quite often he was moving to a side after landing his punches which he wasn't doing in his recent fights.

I've seen the entire fight and I think the tendency to shut down offensively when attacked is apparent there too, but I was responding mainly to the only pre-regression clips the author posted, which show little more than posturing and jabbing. It's suggested in the article that GGG moving back without punching is a new phenomenon, but I think he's had that tendency for a while and it's even apparent in the evidence of that not being the case.

I think the clearest case of regression from the Khomitsky bout would be GGG's now less frequent head movement, but I'm not remotely convinced that someone who shortly after went the distance with and lost multiple rounds to Ian Gardner and Mehdi Bouadla is superior to the fighter who is blowing through Geales and Macklins.

Nice discussion. I strongly agree with the last paragraph - GGG of today would likely KO both Gardner and Bouadla, Sanchez has undoubtedly improved him as an offensive fighter and he is probably fitter and stronger now than he has ever been. To be honest I never thought that GGG was particularly good defensively and agree that his offence is his best form of defense. I just felt that he was fighting impatiently against Geale and hope to see him trying to be a bit more patient and skilful in the future, starting with Rubio.

Remember kessler - boudla ? That guy took a really severe beating until the ref stopped in the seventh i think. I was amazed boudla didnt go down, and further i was really puzzled, as you couldnt see any damage on buodlas head after kessler had used as punchbag for the whole fight. Almost same in regards boudla vs. Aa. That boudla guy is just made of something speciel. Steel skull and thick rhinohide on his face...

[birdman77]

I saw this the other day. Not real conclusive as ypu have an older GGG that has stepped up in quality of opponents--though still far from elite IMHO. He's adopted more of Abel's style for fighters as oppposed to Russian style / European style. What I've never seen is a super slick technical GGG though his amateur pedigree should shine through. When he finally faces heavy ass puncher then we should see more effective defense than covering up and taking 3 steps back. I bet the late great Manny Steward could've found perfect style for GGG to use

[Blodhemn]

Gone from KO 3 to KO 2. GGG just keeps regressing. :(

[BAD INTENTIONS]

Guy just crushed two top 10 middleweights in 3 and 2 rounds.

All the top fighters are running from him.

Yeah, he's regressing ...

[mullenman]

horse shit article

GGG is the best boxer in the world and will fight anybody and knock them out,

people wont fight him because he is so good

[ikorolev]

Guy just crushed two top 10 middleweights in 3 and 2 rounds.

All the top fighters are running from him.

Yeah, he's regressing ...

You may be right, but your argument is wrong. He would have defeated Geale and Rubio 7 years ago doing it in a different manner. People are pushing for him to move up, and he should't fight good bigger punchers in the same manner allowing them to hit him first.

[BAD INTENTIONS]

Guy just crushed two top 10 middleweights in 3 and 2 rounds.

All the top fighters are running from him.

Yeah, he's regressing ...

You may be right, but your argument is wrong. He would have defeated Geale and Rubio 7 years ago doing it in a different manner. People are pushing for him to move up, and he should't fight good bigger punchers in the same manner allowing them to hit him first.

So now Golvokin has to be Floyd AND Mike Tyson?

Daniel Geale had NEVER been stopped before in 32 fights. I don't think he's ever been in serious danger either. GGG KO's him in 3.

Kelly Pavlik took 9 rounds to stop Rubio. And even though he was VASTLY overrated on Boxrec in his prime, I can't deny Pavlik has serious power. GGG just beat Rubio with one punch to the forehead.

You guys are ridiculous. GGG has been overrated so much by the idiot fan, he can't live up to the hype.

[ikorolev]

You may be right, but your argument is wrong. He would have defeated Geale and Rubio 7 years ago doing it in a different manner. People are pushing for him to move up, and he should't fight good bigger punchers in the same manner allowing them to hit him first.

So now Golvokin has to be Floyd AND Mike Tyson?

Daniel Geale had NEVER been stopped before in 32 fights. I don't think he's ever been in serious danger either. GGG KO's him in 3.

Kelly Pavlik took 9 rounds to stop Rubio. And even though he was VASTLY overrated on Boxrec in his prime, I can't deny Pavlik has serious power. GGG just beat Rubio with one punch to the forehead.

You guys are ridiculous. GGG has been overrated so much by the idiot fan, he can't live up to the hype.

I would also add that Pavlik never dropped Rubio. It was just a mercy call fro a ref, because Rubio couldn't win that fight, and there was no sense to take more punishment.

Nobody argues that Gennady's power, offensive skills and confidence are improving. The question is if he is losing some defensive skills and if it can hurt him when facing bigger guys.