Rocky Marciano Vs Ingemar Johansson 1959. What if?

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 11 Jun 2004, 16:14

There was serious talk of the unbeaten Marciano coming out of a 4 year retirement in 1959 to fight Ingemar Johansson whilst the big Swede held the World title.

Rocky even went into training camp for a few weeks before abandoning the idea, I read Lou Duva was lined up to train him.

How would The Rock have faired with four years ring rust to shake off, would he have gotten back the awsome stamina and gradually wore down the younger, fresher and faster Swedish Champ, like he had to so many others?

Ingemar Johansson was pretty much unbeatable at European level and had a good Amatuer background and would have been in his prime, would he be able to outspeed and out point the comebacking former Champ?

If Marciano was 80% of the fighter he had been I go for the Rock by late KO in around 10 rounds, but am I doing the Swedish fighter a diservice.

What do you think fight fans would The Rock have gotten to 50-0?

Palais · Post by **Palais** » 14 Jun 2004, 19:08

By 1958 the European Champion Johansson was hungry for the greatest title of all.
Inspired and confident by ko's over Franco Cavicchi, Heinz Neuhaus, Henry Cooper, Joe Erskine and top contender Eddie Machen, he was hot and dangerous for anybody.

Only Archie McBride stood the distance previous to the Machen bout. Ingemar used that fight for a "sparring session", to learn as much as possible the american style from an experienced fighter.
McBride's cornerman Whitey Bimstein got the picture and joined Johansson's team.

Rocky Marciano was knocked down by Archie Moore in his last fight, a first sign of beeing touchable.
After winning the title from Floyd Patterson, Ingemar slowed down. He had reached his goal and lost his focus.
The return bout with Patterson wasn't really his ambition.

Fighting the legend would be a different situation, with a new prestige perspective for the champ.
I would say 50-50!

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 15 Jun 2004, 11:58

Palais wrote:Fighting the legend would be a different situation, with a new prestige perspective for the champ.
I would say 50-50!

But the rest of your post points to Johansson being the overwhelming favorite.

After a four-year layoff, no way does even a training animal like the Rock regain his former stamina. Fight reflexes would have dulled, too, and Rocky wasn't exactly the hardest guy to hit in the first place. Against top guys he'd use his legendary chin and stamina to gradually wear them down, much like guys like Jirov and Michalczewski have done in rexcent times - and that's not a recipe for longevity in the sport.

Against a young hungry guy with a huge punch like the '59 Johansson, I say that spells disaster, and Marciano gets stopped early and in brutal fashion, after taking a hellish beating and rising from multiple knockdowns.

It would be much like Holmes/Tyson, IMO.

Palais · Post by **Palais** » 15 Jun 2004, 17:37

Although he beat Cavicchi for the European Title, Ingemar Johansson had some problems with Italian fighters. He got nailed and knockdown by Aldo Pellegrini and Uber Baccilieri went the distance. If Marciano's style was "italian", Ingo might have needed a little more experience to handle that kind of fighter.
Okey, 60-40

Jukejar · Post by **Jukejar** » 15 Jun 2004, 23:32

Setting aside the layoff for a moment, based on Marciano's performance against Moore and Johansson's against Patterson, I'd pick Marciano to take out the Swede inside of 5 rounds. Moore did knock Marciano down, but Moore, even at that age, was quicker and more skilled than Johansson, and he threw a beautiful punch that landed on the button. Despite Moore's own belief that Rocky was almost out at that point, the film seems to suggest that he got up on steady legs and recovered quickly. I don't think Rocky would have been too bothered by "Ingo's Bingo" as long as he saw it coming, and Ingemar would have been hard pressed to stand up long after receiving Marciano's piledrivers.

But that scenerio is the 1956 Rocky versus the 1959 Ingemar. If the fight took place in 1960 in place of Johannsson-Patterson II, then I would pick Johannsson to stop Marciano after a bloody 6 or 7 rounds. The layoff would be too much. If Rocky really thought he could do it--and confidence was never a shortage in his psyche--then I think he would have followed through with the comeback. He knew better.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 16 Jun 2004, 12:16

Jukejar wrote: If Rocky really thought he could do it--and confidence was never a shortage in his psyche--then I think he would have followed through with the comeback. He knew better.

On this point, in 1964 when Ali won the title off Liston a rich Texan Businessman offered Rocky a huge amount of money to comeback and fight Ali for the title.

Apparently Rocky thought about it for a short time then declined the offer, a wise choice I think.

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 20 Jun 2004, 13:48

In '59, I don't imagine Rocky would be able to gather close to the great stamina and conditioning he had in his prime. He would also have trouble forcing his body down to his old fighting weight(Marciano had to train like hell to get down to the 180s in the first place). We would probably see a 200-pound Marciano coming in against a Johansson who would likely be taking this fight very seriously.

Johansson lost his focus on his career after achieving his goal and becoming champ, but if he were fighting Rocky, as has been suggested already, he would likely be very serious about this match and give it a lot of commitment. Johansson was a very good fighter when at his best, with solid technical skills, fairly quick hands, and a sledgehammer-like devastating right hand punch.

The way I see this, Johansson would be the quicker and overall more skilled fighter in this match, and Marciano wouldn't have his usual advantages in stamina and overall physical conditioning. However, Marciano would still have his iron jaw and huge punch in either hand, which gives him a very strong chance right there. Marciano could still win it easily if he just got the one necessary huge punch home, as Johansson never had a very good chin.

Still, I have to make Johansson the favorite at this time to stop Marciano in the middle or later rounds.

Caractacus · Post by **Caractacus** » 02 Apr 2016, 11:24

The Rock would have made minc meat of "Ingo" (IMOP)

cfang · Post by **cfang** » 06 Apr 2016, 13:47

Im picking ingo to win this and pretty confidently. The lay off would really be bad news for rocky and i could see him walking onto that right hand. 7 round bloody stoppage would be my guess. Rocky of 5/6 years earlier and its a different story. Funnily enough what complicates Rocky match ups is like with Ali, there's two Rockys - the one punch killer and the more crafty accumulation punch rocky from later on. I always think the early killer was better actually although many disagree.

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 07 Apr 2016, 12:50

One reason Rocky decided to retire was serious back problems which would not have improved by 1959. He would have been the sad old former champion against the young lion, playing the role Joe Louis had filled in 1951. Johansson would have been pumped.

Bodyshot3 · Post by **Bodyshot3** » 07 Apr 2016, 14:51

Great thread

I think a great deal would have depended upon some of these factors.

How would have Ingo coped with another and even bigger 'hoopla' fight in New York; almost certainly at the Yankee Stadium? I don't see the fight being held in Ingo's Gothenburg and the Yankee would've been far more intimidating with a legend like Marciano coming out of the other corner.

A fully fit Marciano with rounds under his belt - even a a couple of so-so tune-ups - is going to be an entirely different prospect to the guy who just comes back for a world title fight. I think that matters; especially for a fighter like Rocky who fought regularly and seemed to need that rhythm.

I can see a fair few scenarios here to be completely honest...one involving Ingemar facing a fight-fit and tuned Marciano in a very hostile place and getting spooked and beaten.

But there's also an under-prepared and possibly still back-problem plagued Rocky stepping in with an extremely dangerous puncher who only needs the one chance to end matters.

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 07 Apr 2016, 15:45

I figure Rocky would've had a lot of trouble, but was ultimately too gritty and tough of a guy to be beaten by Ingemar. I could see Ingo dropping Rocky a few times in the fight, and taking about 5 or 6 rounds, but I think Rocky would've outhustled him and took a 15 round decision or possibly stopped him late. Due to the inactivity though it would've probably been the former.