Let's Review the Career of the Great Vicente Saldivar

[elmersalsa]

Let us review the career of one of the greatest featherweight boxers that ever lived. He is certainly in my book a top ten atg featherweight and a top 100 great ever boxer p4p. He had it all. He was a complete fighter. One of Mexico's best ever.

The only thing that count against him was that his career was kind of short. But when you consider his accomplishments, he was indeed a top 100 great, by anybody's standards...

I am watching his fights at youtube.com... What a fighter!

He was named "El Zurdo de Oro" ("The Golden Southpaw") for something.

[Seamus]

I scored his second fight with Winstone on the scorecard thread. Started sluggish, and I even had him slightly behind thru 10, then he just took over and nearly stopped Winstone in the 14th. Took alot of shots in that bout, and they had little effect.

[Ambling Alp II]

I have always been really high on him. Beat good competition and looks great on film. I actually have him as the #4 featherweight of all time. He was that good. Very underrated.

[Seamus]

While I respect your opinion Alp, 4 is way too high in my opinion. Not sure he makes my top10 Featherweights. Those original weight classes are mighty deep. Even being number 11 means you were damn good.

[Broomhall]

Amazing fighter and it would be hard to see a featherweight in history who would not have his hands full with Saldivar.

[elmersalsa]

I believe that he is a top ten featherweight. In what position? I do not know. But Te Ring Magazine ranked him outside the top ten. Well, the featherweights is one of the deepest divisions in boxing. I think I got him around the 7th to 10th slots at featherweight. He was that great. And he beat good competition at featherweight: Howard Winstone (three times, the last one convincingly by KO), Ismael Laguna, Johnny Famechon, Mitsunori Seki, Eloy Sanchez, Floyd Robertson, Jose Legra, Raul Rojas, and MADE SUGAR CANES out of Sugar Ramos. Ramos after that was noteven rhe same. Saldivar gave him a beating that he never forgot. Just by that alone he is a top 100 fighter in my book.

[Counter-puncher]

I scored his second fight with Winstone on the scorecard thread. Started sluggish, and I even had him slightly behind thru 10, then he just took over and nearly stopped Winstone in the 14th. Took alot of shots in that bout, and they had little effect.

hey Seamus, you heard the story about winstons right hand, right?

[Seamus]

Not sure what you mean, Counterpuncher. Was his right hand injured. He scored pretty well with it in that bout.

Don't mean to degrade Saldivar, but I see him as a very good but not great fighter. Kuniaki Shibata, another good but not great fighter, busted Saldivar up and forced him to quit, and it couldn't be called a case of age, he was 27, or too many bouts, it was his 38th.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think that is a bit of a gray area. Saldivar wasn't quite as good during his comeback after the layoff. The Shibata fight was a close fight which he probably would have won before his first retirement.
He really had a lot of solid wins over some pretty good opponents. (some of them underrated themselves.)
Two wins over Ramos, three over Winstone, a win over Laguna,Jose Legra among others etc. is pretty impressive. Weigh that against the negatives and it's outstanding.

[Counter-puncher]

Hey Seamus. Howard only had 2 fingers on his right hand, lost 2, cut off in an industrial accident.

so he literally only had half a right hand. His jabbing style was obviously developed to compensate, but you can appreciate why his punches often didn't seem to have that much effect

[Counter-puncher]

That's the story i read as a lad anyway

[Seamus]

He only fought Ramos once.

[elmersalsa]

He only fought Ramos once.

Yeah, and Saldivar made sweet rum out of Ramos. He creamed him. Ot was a hell of abeating. Ramos after that was not good

[Ambling Alp II]

He only fought Ramos once.

My mistake; for some reason I thought he beat him twice. I should have looked it up.

[elmersalsa]

Let's see his highlights:

*World Featherweight Champion (1964-67)

*WBC World Featherweight Champion (1969-70)

*Mexican Featherweight Champion

*Made 7 successful title defenses of his first reign as champion, retiring undefeated champ

*Won his first 16 pro bouts. Lost for the first time in his 17th pro bout via disqualification, but avenged that defeat years later.

*Had a 34-1, 26KOs record when he retired for the first time.

*Greatest victory of his career: WTKO12 Sugar Ramos...September 26, 1964...Made sugar canes of worthy champ and gave him a great beating to become world champ.

Other great wins: WKO1 Eloy Sanchez, WTKO8 Baby Luis (II), W10 Ismael Laguna, WTKO2 Juan Ramirez, WTKO12 Howard Winstone (III) (beat Winstone 3 times), W15 Mitsunori Seki, W10 Jose Legra, W15 Johnny Famechon, W10 Frankie Crawford, and WKO2 Floyd Robertson

Great resume. Great world champion. A 100 top pound per pound great by anybody's standards.

[scartissue]

Let's see his highlights:

*World Featherweight Champion (1964-67)

*WBC World Featherweight Champion (1969-70)

*Mexican Featherweight Champion

*Made 7 successful title defenses of his first reign as champion, retiring undefeated champ

*Won his first 16 pro bouts. Lost for the first time in his 17th pro bout via disqualification, but avenged that defeat years later.

*Had a 34-1, 26KOs record when he retired for the first time.

*Greatest victory of his career: WTKO12 Sugar Ramos...September 26, 1964...Made sugar canes of worthy champ and gave him a great beating to become world champ.

Other great wins: WKO1 Eloy Sanchez, WTKO8 Baby Luis (II), W10 Ismael Laguna, WTKO2 Juan Ramirez, WTKO12 Howard Winstone (III) (beat Winstone 3 times), W15 Mitsunori Seki, W10 Jose Legra, W15 Johnny Famechon, W10 Frankie Crawford, and WKO2 Floyd Robertson

Great resume. Great world champion. A 100 top pound per pound great by anybody's standards.

Don't forget his 15th round stoppage of future champ Raul Rojas.

[misterpunch]

sorely undervalued. for me a top 5 feather of all time - and winstone wasn't bad either

[elmersalsa]

Let's see his highlights:

*World Featherweight Champion (1964-67)

*WBC World Featherweight Champion (1969-70)

*Mexican Featherweight Champion

*Made 7 successful title defenses of his first reign as champion, retiring undefeated champ

*Won his first 16 pro bouts. Lost for the first time in his 17th pro bout via disqualification, but avenged that defeat years later.

*Had a 34-1, 26KOs record when he retired for the first time.

*Greatest victory of his career: WTKO12 Sugar Ramos...September 26, 1964...Made sugar canes of worthy champ and gave him a great beating to become world champ.

Other great wins: WKO1 Eloy Sanchez, WTKO8 Baby Luis (II), W10 Ismael Laguna, WTKO2 Juan Ramirez, WTKO12 Howard Winstone (III) (beat Winstone 3 times), W15 Mitsunori Seki, W10 Jose Legra, W15 Johnny Famechon, W10 Frankie Crawford, and WKO2 Floyd Robertson

Great resume. Great world champion. A 100 top pound per pound great by anybody's standards.

Don't forget his 15th round stoppage of future champ Raul Rojas.

Oh man, how could I forget his victory over Raul Rojas? This Saldivar was an awesome fighter. Contrary to the public perception, he was not a brawler. He was a COMPLETE BOXER, with unbelievable hand speed and very accurate puncher. He was not slow of foot. He was swift around the ring and could move very well. He had great stamina. I saw his first fight with Howard Winstone and the fight was close until the 10th round. After the 10th round, it was all Saldivar's!...He deserved the win.

[elmersalsa]

sorely undervalued. for me a top 5 feather of all time - and winstone wasn't bad either

Howard Winstone was an underrated boxer. He had the curse that Saldivar was there. He became the WBC world featherweight champion after Saldivar retired the first time.

[misterpunch]

a superb technician

[elmersalsa]

I saw the 3 fights of Saldivar against Winstone. It seems that Howard started well, but faded after the 9th round in all those fights. Saldivar was just CLEARLY BETTER. He was like a hurricane. He was vicious.

I saw also his fights with Mitsunori Seki. Seki, a southpaw Japanese contender, was a tough slugger. He dropped Saldivar in the 4th round. El Zurdo de Oro dropped him in the 7th, and started dominating the fight, even though Seki won the last 3 rounds. I had it 143-140 Saldivar. He justly defended his title. He justly had the win.

As for the Howard Winstone fights:

Fight #1: Saldivar won in my card 146-142. I do not know what the crowd was booing the decision for. After round 9, it was all Saldivar's!

Fight #2: Saldivar won in my card 144-141. Howard did much better the second time around, but again, he faded after round 8 and El Zurdo de Oro took over.

Fight #3: I had Saldivar winning in my scorecard 107-104 at the time of the stoppage in the 12th round.

El Zurdo de Oro was a FANTASTIC FIGHTER. He is a top 100 all time great, pound per pound in my view.

[scartissue]

Elmer, I totally understand and agree with everything you said on Saldivar. A great 15 round fighter who is in my top 10 feathers. However, let's look at his greatest win which was over Sugar Ramos. Although I would always pick Saldivar over Ramos, Sugar was having an issue with weight at this time and really needed to vacate 126. For a guy having trouble with weight, fighting a pressure-cooker fighter who thrived on the long distance was not conducive to a successful defense. When he did move up he reignited his career. He fought competitively against Mando Ramos, Chango Carmona, Raul Rojas, Raul Soriano (twice), Jimmy Robertson and fought twice for the lightweight title losing both times to the great Carlos Ortiz. I should also mention he had Ortiz down in their first fight, so he had a good, successful career after the Saldivar thumpin'.

[elmersalsa]

Saldivar fought in Rome in '60 Olympics. Did he made $40,000 in his first pro bout? Do the math.

[elmersalsa]

Elmer, I totally understand and agree with everything you said on Saldivar. A great 15 round fighter who is in my top 10 feathers. However, let's look at his greatest win which was over Sugar Ramos. Although I would always pick Saldivar over Ramos, Sugar was having an issue with weight at this time and really needed to vacate 126. For a guy having trouble with weight, fighting a pressure-cooker fighter who thrived on the long distance was not conducive to a successful defense. When he did move up he reignited his career. He fought competitively against Mando Ramos, Chango Carmona, Raul Rojas, Raul Soriano (twice), Jimmy Robertson and fought twice for the lightweight title losing both times to the great Carlos Ortiz. I should also mention he had Ortiz down in their first fight, so he had a good, successful career after the Saldivar thumpin'.

I am sorry scartissue, but after the Saldivar licking, Sugar Ramos was not the same after that. I give him credit for holding on a little longer and fought the best of his era, but the fight with El Zurdo de Oro was the beginning of the end.

[scartissue]

Elmer, I totally understand and agree with everything you said on Saldivar. A great 15 round fighter who is in my top 10 feathers. However, let's look at his greatest win which was over Sugar Ramos. Although I would always pick Saldivar over Ramos, Sugar was having an issue with weight at this time and really needed to vacate 126. For a guy having trouble with weight, fighting a pressure-cooker fighter who thrived on the long distance was not conducive to a successful defense. When he did move up he reignited his career. He fought competitively against Mando Ramos, Chango Carmona, Raul Rojas, Raul Soriano (twice), Jimmy Robertson and fought twice for the lightweight title losing both times to the great Carlos Ortiz. I should also mention he had Ortiz down in their first fight, so he had a good, successful career after the Saldivar thumpin'.

I am sorry scartissue, but after the Saldivar licking, Sugar Ramos was not the same after that. I give him credit for holding on a little longer and fought the best of his era, but the fight with El Zurdo de Oro was the beginning of the end.

Elmer, I saw Ramos fight several times as a lightweight and he never looked like damaged goods to me. Maybe not as fluid as he was when he fought Moore, but he was fighting bigger opponents who always had a height and reach over him. I thought he did alright at 135 considering His physical disadvantages. I should also note that as early as two years before the Saldivar fight he was fighting lightweight non-titles and looked like crap defending against Floyd Robertson. He was just having a merciless time at the weight. And again, I say I would pick Saldivar over Ramos even with Ramos in peak form.