IBHOF 2015 Inductees

[Seamus]

Since the subject has come up in the Hamed thread I thought it would be interesting to have a discussion on all of 2015's inductees. The following fighters will be inducted in June

Riddick Bowe
Naseem Hamed
Ray Mancini
Yoko Gushiken
Masao Ohba
Ken Overlin

[klompton]

I just threw up in my own mouth...

[elmersalsa]

Since the subject has come up in the Hamed thread I thought it would be interesting to have a discussion on all of 2015's inductees. The following fighters will be inducted in June

Riddick Bowe
Naseem Hamed
Ray Mancini
Yoko Gushiken
Masao Ohba
Ken Overlin

That is BLASPHEMY. Only Gushiken, Ohba and Overlin should be in the hall.

[Seamus]

If it's about fame, why not induct Andrew Golota ? He'd be great at a Hall of Fame weekend, imagine all the visitors saying "Andrew, can I get my picture taken with you ? Pretend you're punching me in the nuts".

[Ambling Alp II]

People don't like Bowe, but he is a legitimate Hall of Famer. Overlin was a good pick as well. The rest...

[klompton]

Why was Bowe a HOFer? Im a fan of Bowes but the guys HOF resume is limited to exactly two wins... Over the same guy! He had a short tenure as champion, a relatively short career, the stigma of supposedly avoiding Lewis (I dont believe that but plenty do), he didnt even win the Olympics. Id say Bowe is a poster child for coming up short and that should be reflected in whether or not he gets inducted.

[Seamus]

Think about it, just off the top of my head. These guys aren't in yet. Jimmy Leto. Frankie Burns. Santos Laciar. Willie Joyce. Lockport Jimmy Duffy. Del Flanagan. Samuel Serrano. Petey Sarron. Charley White. Dariusz Michalczewski. Rodrigo Valdes. Del Flanagan. Bert Lytell.

[Ambling Alp II]

I have thought for a long time that Valdes and Eddie Mustapha Muhammad should have been several years ago.

[Rexob]

[Ambling Alp II]

Why was Bowe a HOFer? Im a fan of Bowes but the guys HOF resume is limited to exactly two wins... Over the same guy! He had a short tenure as champion, a relatively short career, the stigma of supposedly avoiding Lewis (I dont believe that but plenty do), he didnt even win the Olympics. Id say Bowe is a poster child for coming up short and that should be reflected in whether or not he gets inducted.

I don't think that he didn't live up to his potential should be a factor. It should simply be how good he was. He could have had an even impressive career. But what he did was enough. Had he beat Lewis he wouldn't have got much credit for it anyway. Lewis had a "glass jaw" would have been mentioned.

A fighter's best win isn't the only factor; but it's huge. Very few heavyweights had a bigger win than Bowe. And he only had one loss, which was a close loss to a great fighter, which easily could have gone his way.

Compare the pluses and minuses of what he did; He did more than was the majority of the guys that in; not just one or two horrible picks.

[Jpreisser]

I think the IBHOF is more concerned with customer traffic than upholding a level of standards. Bowe, Mancini? Come on. I do like Overlin and Gushiken's inductions, however.

[BoxBuzz]

I think the IBHOF is more concerned with customer traffic than upholding a level of standards. Bowe, Mancini? Come on. I do like Overlin and Gushiken's inductions, however.

Seamus actually has a good point with Golata.....he's a household name. And the Nutcracker suite could be playing on headphones next to his memorabilia for those who want an audio experience.

All we can do is hope they get a few of the excellent fighters in, as they pull in the names that can bring in the folks to the hall.

Valdez has got to be the worst oversight......I thought it was Monzon that was the murderer, but Valdez must have done something to make him persona non gratis.


Hey Seamus.....Naz is another that can bring the folks round......and it will be there that the less educated can become familiar with not only the famous but the great, while they get there jollies based on their personal favorites.

There has to be some old fashioned Barnum and Bailey type of attractions....and THEN the education can begin.

Klompton....you are so steeped in what is boxing excellence, that you would have the Hall go bankrupt by boring the public with only the best pugilistic skillsets on display.

A statue of Golata the size of the Eiffel Tower giving the NutCracker Special to Bowe, might go far in lining the pockets of the owners to the point that they might turn philanthropist on us all, and fund the Pugilists retirement fund deep into the 21st century.

[elmersalsa]

Putting Riddick Bowe in the IBHOF is a travesty.

Ernesto "Nato" Marcel is not in?
Hilario Zapata is not in?
Gilberto Roman is not in?
Santos Laciar is not in?
Esteban De Jesus is not in?

The IBHOF is LOSING RESPECT AND CREDIBILITY. Riddick Bowe?, please. Ray Mancini?, please. Naseem Hamed?, please. Barry McGuigan? please.

[klompton]

I don't think that he didn't live up to his potential should be a factor. It should simply be how good he was.

Maybe, but you need to base that on something and two fights is hardly enough for a HOF induction IMO. Its like hitting one game winning home run in the world series and getting inducted off that one play. Its weak, but the IBHOF has become a complete joke anyway and is now simply a moneymaking scheme by the Brophy's. Its rapidly falling out of fashion because people can see it for that. I look for the thing to be obsolete before too long.

[Ambling Alp II]

A lot depends on how strict you want to be. Do you only want people like Robinson, Ali, Langford, in? If you do, you won't have much of a Hall of Fame. Do you want everyone will a pretty record against noboides in? I personally don't.

You have to set the bar somewhere in between. Exactly where is the big question.

Often people will say Fighter A should be because he was better than fighter B who is already in. That is silly because if that is the criteria we would have to put everyone who was better than the ridiculous picks like Willard and Braddock.

However, with Bowe, I think he was better than the majority of guys who are in. Lets keep it simple and compare him to heavyweights that are already in.
Look at the heavyweights who are already in. He was clearly much better than Tom Sharkey, Joe Choynski, Billy Miske,George Godfrey, Jess Willard, Jimmy Braddock, and Ingemar Johannson. I don't even see how that is debatable.

I'm sure people will argue this, but I think he was also better than Corbett, Jackson, Jeannette, McVey,Wills,Walcott, Patterson, Norton, Schmeling, Sharkey, and Baer.
Look at their "victim's list". Look at their losses. Compare that to Bowe.

You have to look at a lot of factors when rating a fighter.
If video is available, you have to factor in the eye test. Look at his other fights close to his prime. Most of time, he performed like a great fighter. (This is probably the part where someone brings up the Golota fights.)

You have to look at the big wins, and well as the losses. Bowe's one loss was much more impressive than these other guys, most of whom who had several; many to inferior opponents. To a certain extent, you have to give credit to a fighter for being consistent and not losing to the guys he is supposed to beat.

Is being consistent alone, enough to justify getting into the Hall of Fame? No.
However, if you add that to a major win that is better than almost everyone else biggest win, and yes it is justified.

[Seamus]

Problem is, there's a very long list of fighters with more impressive resumes than Bowe. Unfortunately (at least in the USA) there's always been a big fixation with Heavyweights.

[Ambling Alp II]

Well, in a way it's apples and oranges when you compare heavyweights to guys from the lighter weights. There are some gray areas.
However, there isn't a long list of non-heavyweights who are not in the Hall of Fame that were clearly better than Bowe.
There are many non-heavyweights that Bowe was clearly better than that are in the Hall of Fame.

[Controversial]

It has to be remembered what the criteria is for getting into the IBHOF. It isn't about whose the best or ATGs. From their website "Our mission is to honor and preserve boxing's rich heritage, chronicle the achievements of those who excelled and provide an educational experience for our many visitors"

Thats why there are refs, promoters, trainers, journalists and even Sylvester Stallone is in there.

For a boxer to get in there I would have thought they would need to be either an ATG or at least someone who dominated their division, or was too good for their own good and avoided like the plague. For me Bowe didn't do enough and personally I think Hamed is more deserving than him. Its a fine line deciding who gets in and will always cause debate.

[Nile4000]

Putting Riddick Bowe in the IBHOF is a travesty.

Ernesto "Nato" Marcel is not in?
Hilario Zapata is not in?
Gilberto Roman is not in?
Santos Laciar is not in?
Esteban De Jesus is not in?

The IBHOF is LOSING RESPECT AND CREDIBILITY. Riddick Bowe?, please. Ray Mancini?, please. Naseem Hamed?, please. Barry McGuigan? please.

My feelings exactly.Riddick Bowe? Unfreakingbelievable.

[Ambling Alp II]

It has to be remembered what the criteria is for getting into the IBHOF. It isn't about whose the best or ATGs. From their website "Our mission is to honor and preserve boxing's rich heritage, chronicle the achievements of those who excelled and provide an educational experience for our many visitors"

Thats why there are refs, promoters, trainers, journalists and even Sylvester Stallone is in there.

For a boxer to get in there I would have thought they would need to be either an ATG or at least someone who dominated their division, or was too good for their own good and avoided like the plague. For me Bowe didn't do enough and personally I think Hamed is more deserving than him. Its a fine line deciding who gets in and will always cause debate.

Bowe beat a prime Evander Holyfield. Who did Hamed beat that was remotely as good?

[Seamus]

Two good wins over Holyfield. Not much else.

[Ambling Alp II]

How many guys would have gone 43-1 against Bowe's competition?

[klompton]

Its just remarkable to me that a guy can get in based literally on two wins. Two freaking wins over the same fighter. Its nuts. Nate Bolden beat Tony Zale twice and Lamotta once, why not let him in? Soldier Bartfield beat Jack Britton 2x, Kid Graves, Mike Gibbons, Harry Greb, Kid Lewis 2x, Bryan Downey, and Billy Papke. Why isnt he in? Im not suggesting for a second those guys should be in but thats the same criteria that is used to validate Bowe. Good lord, Bartfield's best wins piss all over Bowes and nobody would argue for his induction. Its just silly. Hamed is even worse. He beat nobody and lost to the only halfway threatening guy he ever fought and he only chose that fight because he thought the guy was shot AND the guy was coming up in weight.

[Tuan_Jim]

Riddick Bowe absolutely deserves his place in the Hall of Fame.

Bowe/Holyfield I was the greatest heavyweight fight of the 1990s. The trilogy in itself is one of the most outstanding trilogies in the entire history of the sport. All three fights are thrilling, back-and-forth wars of an epic dimension. Any boxing fan who thinks that a fighter who sacrificed his blood and brains in three-three!-of the sports most electrifying contests doesn't deserve a spot in the Hall of Fame is a poor sport indeed.

On top of Big Daddy's classic episodes of ultra-violence with the Real Deal is everything else. He was the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. He was pure entertainment, and his fights were all-out action. In an era when Lennox Lewis and Michael Moorer so often poked and prodded their way through fights, and also got themselves knocked out by opponents they were suppose to walk over, Bowe came to crush skulls and utterly massacred anyone below his elite level. He was the first man to beat a prime Evander Holyfield. He was only man to ever KO Holyfield. No one KOd him and he suffered no humiliating losses. When Tyson came out of prison Bowe's shadow loomed large, and it was Bowe who was considered the best in the world. And then there's the two apocalyptic punch ups with Golota, and when a washed up Bowe was dropped in the rematch, beaten badly and all looked lost, what did he do? Deck Golota and break his jaw! An utterly crazy warrior to the end.

(In case I haven't made myself clear, I completely endorse Riddick Bowe's induction)

[Idisagree]

I think Bowe deserves to be in. In his favor:
Memorable trilogy vs a prime Holyfield. Let us not forget that Holyfield was the clear favorite on the first fight.
Prime Bowe was very skillful.
He beat some decent competition and a few undefeated fighters in impressive fashion.

I think Ambling Alp II has a point. How many guys would have gone 43-1 against Bowe's competition?
Against him:
No longevity. His prime did not last long.
After Holyfield his resume is slightly above average.

I think based on his memorable trilogy and skills he belongs.
In my opinion a prime Bowe would have given problems to any heavyweight in history.

Mancini got in based on popularity just like Gatti. He was not that skillful but for some reason he was extremely popular during his era. His popularity transcended his skills.