IF.Manny had won, where would he be as an ATG??

[KBB]

I think Manny would have gotten ranked as a Top Ten ATG if he beat Floyd.

Your thoughts!

[koolkc107]

I think some will eventually put him top 10 ATG any way.

He isnt. Not by a long shot.

He is, however, the 3rd best welterweight of his era.

[Grant]

I think he is already a great of this era. Forget about the Mayweather fight which was 5-8 years too late.
He took on the best often giving away inches, won most lost a few.
I put him up there with Duran.
Think of him around five years ago before you make up your mind

[jezzamundo]

If Manny had legitimately, clearly beaten Floyd in 2015, I, like most people I imagine, would rate him higher than Floyd, but no higher than #20 of all-time p4p. Had the fight happened in 2009-2011 you could argue higher, but ultimately a fight between two guys past theit primes - as May's fight was - isn't going to make much difference to either guy's historical standing.

[KBB]

If Manny had legitimately, clearly beaten Floyd in 2015, I, like most people I imagine, would rate him higher than Floyd, but no higher than #20 of all-time p4p. Had the fight happened in 2009-2011 you could argue higher, but ultimately a fight between two guys past theit primes - as May's fight was - isn't going to make much difference to either guy's historical standing.

I totally disagree that it isn't going to make a difference, name 2 or 3 fighters that could or would dominate either fighter right now or especially5-6 years ago??

There's no way in hell that anyone could tell me that if the results had been different that we wouldn't have seen a major difference in how each fighter would have been viewed in terms of ATG status.

[jezzamundo]

I don't think I made my meaning as clear as I should have. Had Mayweather or Pacquiao fought in March 2010 as originally scheduled, the result would have had a HUGE difference to their all-time standing and the winner (had they won clearly) would have been guaranteed a top 20 spot on most all-time p4p lists.

As it was, from my point of view, the fight we did have earlier this year, was between a past his prime Floyd and a way past his prime Manny (yes, Floyd is older, but he doesn't rely as much on his physical gifts as Manny does and has therefore aged better) - both of whom gave disappointing performances. I think in the eyes of many casual fans, this fight made a big difference to the all-time standing of the winner, but to knowledgeable fans of the boxing, it shouldn't.

[stevedoc]

I think some will eventually put him top 10 ATG any way.

He isnt. Not by a long shot.

He is, however, the 3rd best welterweight of his era.

OK who's no2 then

[jezzamundo]

I think some will eventually put him top 10 ATG any way.

He isnt. Not by a long shot.

He is, however, the 3rd best welterweight of his era.

OK who's no2 then

Good question, though hard to answer - I assume he means Marquez or Bradley? Another question is when did 'his era' start and finish? Can we talk about guys like De La Hoya and Mosley?

[koolkc107]

I think some will eventually put him top 10 ATG any way.

He isnt. Not by a long shot.

He is, however, the 3rd best welterweight of his era.

OK who's no2 then

Good question, though hard to answer - I assume he means Marquez or Bradley? Another question is when did 'his era' start and finish? Can we talk about guys like De La Hoya and Mosley?

I meant JMM.

Those who argue based solely on the 2-1-1 mark Manny holds head to head are, in my opinion, ignoring 43 rounds of objective proof that tell a different story.

Marquez thinks he won all 4 fights, and although I don't go that far I do think he won 2 of the 3 that went the distance and he does have the KO.

I do allow something jezza is angling at.

If you define era a bit more broadly (meaning before Manny became a star) you may have to change who is #2.

I think there are indeed strong arguments for Mosley and DLH.

And do you include Chavez and Pernell? Hard decisions...

[jezzamundo]

I meant JMM.

Those who argue based solely on the 2-1-1 mark Manny holds head to head are, in my opinion, ignoring 43 rounds of objective proof that tell a different story.

Marquez thinks he won all 4 fights, and although I don't go that far I do think he won 2 of the 3 that went the distance and he does have the KO.

I do allow something jezza is angling at.

If you define era a bit more broadly (meaning before Manny became a star) you may have to change who is #2.

I think there are indeed strong arguments for Mosley and DLH.

And do you include Chavez and Pernell? Hard decisions...

Head-to-head, I don't think there's much between Manny and JMM. I thought Manny won their first (drawn) fight clearly (114-111), I scored the rematch to Manny by a single point (best scoring in any of their fights IMO), while I had Marquez nicking the third fight where Manny got the nod - so I have it 2 all with the Mexican winning the most recent encounters. Looking at their whole body of work at welterweight, I think Manny is clearly ahead.

[koolkc107]

I meant JMM.

Those who argue based solely on the 2-1-1 mark Manny holds head to head are, in my opinion, ignoring 43 rounds of objective proof that tell a different story.

Marquez thinks he won all 4 fights, and although I don't go that far I do think he won 2 of the 3 that went the distance and he does have the KO.

I do allow something jezza is angling at.

If you define era a bit more broadly (meaning before Manny became a star) you may have to change who is #2.

I think there are indeed strong arguments for Mosley and DLH.

And do you include Chavez and Pernell? Hard decisions...

Head-to-head, I don't think there's much between Manny and JMM. I thought Manny won their first (drawn) fight clearly (114-111), I scored the rematch to Manny by a single point (best scoring in any of their fights IMO), while I had Marquez nicking the third fight where Manny got the nod - so I have it 2 all with the Mexican winning the most recent encounters. Looking at their whole body of work at welterweight, I think Manny is clearly ahead.

I think it depends on how you are measuring.

If you are saying who compiled the most accolades or who accomplished the most, yes you put Manny ahead of JMM.

But if the question is "who was better", it's Marquez- and definitely IMO.

[jezzamundo]

I meant JMM.

Those who argue based solely on the 2-1-1 mark Manny holds head to head are, in my opinion, ignoring 43 rounds of objective proof that tell a different story.

Marquez thinks he won all 4 fights, and although I don't go that far I do think he won 2 of the 3 that went the distance and he does have the KO.

I do allow something jezza is angling at.

If you define era a bit more broadly (meaning before Manny became a star) you may have to change who is #2.

I think there are indeed strong arguments for Mosley and DLH.

And do you include Chavez and Pernell? Hard decisions...

Head-to-head, I don't think there's much between Manny and JMM. I thought Manny won their first (drawn) fight clearly (114-111), I scored the rematch to Manny by a single point (best scoring in any of their fights IMO), while I had Marquez nicking the third fight where Manny got the nod - so I have it 2 all with the Mexican winning the most recent encounters. Looking at their whole body of work at welterweight, I think Manny is clearly ahead.

I think it depends on how you are measuring.

If you are saying who compiled the most accolades or who accomplished the most, yes you put Manny ahead of JMM.

But if the question is "who was better", it's Marquez- and definitely IMO.

How'd you work that out?

Styles make fights - Marquez's style was highly effective against Manny, so their fights were very competitive. Marquez definitively won the 4th fight, no question, but to say that he was definitely better than Manny based on one punch is a bit short-sighted IMO. Based on that logic, Tim Bradley was definitely better than JMM. I will agree that Marquez is a better technical boxer than Manny, but for me, he ranks clearly behind Manny in an all-time p4p sense, as well as at welterweight.

[Ricky_]

Koolkc & brut is the same acc absolute brain damage this thread. @ jmm being the 2nd greatest Welter of this era.... dude hasn't even won a world title at ww

[KBB]

Koolkc & brut is the same acc absolute brain damage this thread. @ jmm being the 2nd greatest Welter of this era.... dude hasn't even won a world title at ww

Wow, I swear that mental retardation runs deep within that little amoeba you call a brain of yours, I've told you time and time again that I do not have any other accounts here other than KBB, Brut or Turb and the last 2 I no longer use but still you are either so dense or lack some serious comprehension because you keep saying the same dumb stuff over and over again.

I didn't never say anything about JMM nor would I ever say he's the 2nd greatest WW of this era, that honor belongs to MP, he has always been second fiddle to Floyd and always will be.

I hope that is satisfactory enough for a retard like you so that you will quit saying that I'm this guy or me and that guy are the same people because we're not.

I swear some folks are clearly retarded nowadays.

[Butterbean]

Of course pac is an atg. Isnt he the one whom has won most titles at most different weights, and been the one to go furthest away from hes start weight and compete at top lvl. And surpases mw by a longshot in this regard. He also fought the best available and faced anyonw who wanted to. Yes he did loose to mw, but many years away from hes peak and many classes away from his natural weight and size.
Yes mw has some exceptional defensive skills, but his lack of fighting the best available, his cherrypicking of opponents and so on rules him out of contest regarding atgs. Showwise and moneymaking was he good at, but dude should have gone to the movies or the wwf or something.

Howcome all floyd fans is all over this thread, givin tempered critisism to pac. He outdoes your guy by lightyears.

[KBB]

Of course pac is an atg. Isnt he the one whom has won most titles at most different weights, and been the one to go furthest away from hes start weight and compete at top lvl. And surpases mw by a longshot in this regard. He also fought the best available and faced anyonw who wanted to. Yes he did loose to mw, but many years away from hes peak and many classes away from his natural weight and size.
Yes mw has some exceptional defensive skills, but his lack of fighting the best available, his cherrypicking of opponents and so on rules him out of contest regarding atgs. Showwise and moneymaking was he good at, but dude should have gone to the movies or the wwf or something.

Howcome all floyd fans is all over this thread, givin tempered critisism to pac. He outdoes your guy by lightyears.

Here we go^^^^^^^
First this is really a thread about Manny, not Floyd and even moreso about what position would Pacquiao be ranked in if he had won vs Mayweather but to address or question some of the garbage you wrote let's start here:

Both fighters were past their peaks when they fought, it was clearly Manny's fault the fight didn't happen in 2010 when people seemed to think it mattered more and as far as Floyd, who didn't he face that you are blaming him for?? Paul Williams?? Even PW said Floyd never ducked him. Margarito?? We already know that tired story, how many times have this type of BS been dispelled here??

If you call Cherrypicking a prime Maidana, prime Corrales, prime Canelo, Oscar, Mosley as cherrypicking then you may as well call Manny a Cherrypicker as well also.

You claiming Manny outdoes Money is pure BS, you'd have to go a long way to prove that and with Floyd beating him and beating him easily I might add only further shuts down your hateful nonsense.

When I started this thread my intent was for it not to turn into another debate about who is this and who is that but it's people like you who cannot take the thread for what it's worth and force this back and forth quarrel when the thread is about Manny's place as an ATG if he had beaten Floyd.

Why did you want to muddy the water here when everyone is debating without the hate? You and Ricky always want to turn everything into crap. Grow the hell up and stay on topic or don't bother to comment if you can't stay on topic.

[stevedoc]

I think some will eventually put him top 10 ATG any way.

He isnt. Not by a long shot.

He is, however, the 3rd best welterweight of his era.

OK who's no2 then

Good question, though hard to answer - I assume he means Marquez or Bradley? Another question is when did 'his era' start and finish? Can we talk about guys like De La Hoya and Mosley?

You do realise that Marquez has never been a welter weight ! A couple of fights @142 but he's not welterweight his closes I think was Bradley @144 which he lost so a can't see how anyone can claim him to be the 2nd best welterweight.
This replying to koolkc

[tiny_acres]

Stevedoc.

I hate to sound like a real shmuck here.But anything over 140 pounds is a welterweight.
Though I do agree JMM is not a true welter he has competed in the division being with in the
weight limit.

[Ricky_]

Stevedoc.

I hate to sound like a real shmuck here.But anything over 140 pounds is a welterweight.
Though I do agree JMM is not a true welter he has competed in the division being with in the
weight limit.

How many fights has he had at the 147 limit?

[koolkc107]

Let's try this another way.

Say JMM and Manny are fighting a fifth time and you must bet everything you own on who MOST will say won the fight.

How many of you bet the farm on Pac?

[tiny_acres]

Let's try this another way.

Say JMM and Manny are fighting a fifth time and you must bet everything you own on who MOST will say won the fight.

How many of you bet the farm on Pac?

I would not bet on this one

[Butterbean]

Of course pac is an atg. Isnt he the one whom has won most titles at most different weights, and been the one to go furthest away from hes start weight and compete at top lvl. And surpases mw by a longshot in this regard. He also fought the best available and faced anyonw who wanted to. Yes he did loose to mw, but many years away from hes peak and many classes away from his natural weight and size.
Yes mw has some exceptional defensive skills, but his lack of fighting the best available, his cherrypicking of opponents and so on rules him out of contest regarding atgs. Showwise and moneymaking was he good at, but dude should have gone to the movies or the wwf or something.

Howcome all floyd fans is all over this thread, givin tempered critisism to pac. He outdoes your guy by lightyears.

Here we go^^^^^^^
First this is really a thread about Manny, not Floyd and even moreso about what position would Pacquiao be ranked in if he had won vs Mayweather but to address or question some of the garbage you wrote let's start here:

Both fighters were past their peaks when they fought, it was clearly Manny's fault the fight didn't happen in 2010 when people seemed to think it mattered more and as far as Floyd, who didn't he face that you are blaming him for?? Paul Williams?? Even PW said Floyd never ducked him. Margarito?? We already know that tired story, how many times have this type of BS been dispelled here??

If you call Cherrypicking a prime Maidana, prime Corrales, prime Canelo, Oscar, Mosley as cherrypicking then you may as well call Manny a Cherrypicker as well also.

You claiming Manny outdoes Money is pure BS, you'd have to go a long way to prove that and with Floyd beating him and beating him easily I might add only further shuts down your hateful nonsense.

When I started this thread my intent was for it not to turn into another debate about who is this and who is that but it's people like you who cannot take the thread for what it's worth and force this back and forth quarrel when the thread is about Manny's place as an ATG if he had beaten Floyd.

Why did you want to muddy the water here when everyone is debating without the hate? You and Ricky always want to turn everything into crap. Grow the hell up and stay on topic or don't bother to comment if you can't stay on topic.

you took the bate, and yet again exposes yourself as an idiot, extreme fanboy and troll. you just cant handle the fact that most serious persons around this sport does not rate mayweathers achievements that high. his merits is not even comparable to those of pacs, and his legacy, well, its more about show and dollars than boxing. and now he is to old to do anything about it,
prime oscar and mosley.... ROFL

and back to your topic. Yes manny is an atg, with or with out the fight with mw. manny will be remembered and honored as the guy whom whent throug the weights, fought the absolute best and went way in over his head to achieve his goals. he lost a few, but did so in style, so to speak.
And since your constant comparison to mw, which you also use in both title and initial post here in this thread, ( so it actuallly puzzles me, how you in your right mind slag me for bringing in mw in this thread ????), i can tell you a little secret. In a few years, not that many, mw will be remembered as a gifted boxer, whom disrespected the sport and pissed his legacy away fighting for money, not glory and respect, cherrypicking shopworn names and mostly known for his appaling behavior, both in and outside the ring. face it and stop using this forum, please !

[davie]

Exactly where Floyd Mayweather sits now!

But he didn't, so he isn't.

[Ricky_]

Of course pac is an atg. Isnt he the one whom has won most titles at most different weights, and been the one to go furthest away from hes start weight and compete at top lvl. And surpases mw by a longshot in this regard. He also fought the best available and faced anyonw who wanted to. Yes he did loose to mw, but many years away from hes peak and many classes away from his natural weight and size.
Yes mw has some exceptional defensive skills, but his lack of fighting the best available, his cherrypicking of opponents and so on rules him out of contest regarding atgs. Showwise and moneymaking was he good at, but dude should have gone to the movies or the wwf or something.

Howcome all floyd fans is all over this thread, givin tempered critisism to pac. He outdoes your guy by lightyears.

Here we go^^^^^^^
First this is really a thread about Manny, not Floyd and even moreso about what position would Pacquiao be ranked in if he had won vs Mayweather but to address or question some of the garbage you wrote let's start here:

Both fighters were past their peaks when they fought, it was clearly Manny's fault the fight didn't happen in 2010 when people seemed to think it mattered more and as far as Floyd, who didn't he face that you are blaming him for?? Paul Williams?? Even PW said Floyd never ducked him. Margarito?? We already know that tired story, how many times have this type of BS been dispelled here??

If you call Cherrypicking a prime Maidana, prime Corrales, prime Canelo, Oscar, Mosley as cherrypicking then you may as well call Manny a Cherrypicker as well also.

You claiming Manny outdoes Money is pure BS, you'd have to go a long way to prove that and with Floyd beating him and beating him easily I might add only further shuts down your hateful nonsense.

When I started this thread my intent was for it not to turn into another debate about who is this and who is that but it's people like you who cannot take the thread for what it's worth and force this back and forth quarrel when the thread is about Manny's place as an ATG if he had beaten Floyd.

Why did you want to muddy the water here when everyone is debating without the hate? You and Ricky always want to turn everything into crap. Grow the hell up and stay on topic or don't bother to comment if you can't stay on topic.

you took the bate, and yet again exposes yourself as an idiot, extreme fanboy and troll. you just cant handle the fact that most serious persons around this sport does not rate mayweathers achievements that high. his merits is not even comparable to those of pacs, and his legacy, well, its more about show and dollars than boxing. and now he is to old to do anything about it,
prime oscar and mosley.... ROFL

and back to your topic. Yes manny is an atg, with or with out the fight with mw. manny will be remembered and honored as the guy whom whent throug the weights, fought the absolute best and went way in over his head to achieve his goals. he lost a few, but did so in style, so to speak.
And since your constant comparison to mw, which you also use in both title and initial post here in this thread, ( so it actuallly puzzles me, how you in your right mind slag me for bringing in mw in this thread ????), i can tell you a little secret. In a few years, not that many, mw will be remembered as a gifted boxer, whom disrespected the sport and pissed his legacy away fighting for money, not glory and respect, cherrypicking shopworn names and mostly known for his appaling behavior, both in and outside the ring. face it and stop using this forum, please !

Wow, brut got his ass handed to him

[stevedoc]

Stevedoc.

I hate to sound like a real shmuck here.But anything over 140 pounds is a welterweight.
Though I do agree JMM is not a true welter he has competed in the division being with in the
weight limit.

Not at all most fighters fight a little above the weight unless it's a title fight ,it's just that there are so many silly titles now that many fighters have to make weight in many of their fights , marques isn't a welter weight no more than ray Leonard is a light heavy weight