Lacy and Bute similarities

[johnswan1]

Thinking back of these two wins, which win do you think will be more highly regarded in history or will neither be as relevant as they seemed at the time?

In both cases the home fighter was the betting underdog against an undefeated foreign opponent who was considered to be in his prime.

Lacy had made four defenses of his IBF title, while Bute had made ten defenses of his (also IBF).

Lacy was considered the more explosive of the two while Bute was seen as a complete boxer.

Both Lacy and Bute suffered humiliating defeats with Lacy the perceived puncher getting the ears boxed off him for twelve rounds and Bute the perceived boxer getting smashed to pieces.

At the time both wins were considered as career defining for Joe/Carl.

Neither losing fighter was ever the same afterwards, and although this is most likely directly related to the nature of the defeats it probably taints both victories in hindsight.

Which was better, and would the outcomes have been any different or less dominant if it was Carl who fought Lacy and Joe who fought Bute?

I think Calzaghe would have beaten Bute on points, while Froch would have stopped Lacy in a barnburner.

And undefeated Lacy vs undefeated Bute? I think Lacy would have stopped Bute.

[mickey1975]

The hype around Lacy was mad. Joe just beat him up. Bute a little less, but still a great result. I wouldn't want to split the two, as good as each other.

[Counter-puncher]

And undefeated Lacy vs undefeated Bute? I think Lacy would have stopped Bute.

i think Bute would have uppercutted / bodyshotted Lacy into the middle of next week. Lacy couldn't box southpaws, specially not southpaws with decent footwork.

[Horse]

Bute was a lot better than Lacy.

[crusader]

I think Bute was a better fighter and more proven.

[Boxerbeetle]

The Andrade fight indicated that Bute was chinny; the Froch fight confirmed it. Prime for prime, I think Lacy would have stopped him. Bute was a better all-round boxer, but just too fragile.

[crusader]

The Andrade fight was mainly a stamina issue in my opinion. Bute handily outboxed Sakio Bika and I think he couldve done the same to one-trick Lacy.

[Boxerbeetle]

The Andrade fight was mainly a stamina issue in my opinion. Bute handily outboxed Sakio Bika and I think he couldve done the same to one-trick Lacy.

Even if the Andrade fight was down to stamina, who else has Carl Froch stopped within the first half of a fight? Other than Mack, you have to look a long way down his resume for a similar result, which strongly suggests to me that Bute is very fragile.

[crusader]

He looked fragile, but I don't believe that he actually went down despite the beating (he also took a mashing from Andrade before finally dropping) and I think he'd have a much easier time avoiding Lacy's shots.

[Counter-puncher]

I think he'd have a much easier time avoiding Lacy's shots.

that's the key for me beetle

also, whilst i take your point that Froch didn't usually hurt people early, personally i think Bute getting hurt early was (at least) as much down to an unusually fast-starting Froch, as any weaknesses in Bute.

[Boxerbeetle]

Fvck it, let's just campaign for the fight to get made & we can find out for sure.

[Counter-puncher]

Fvck it, let's just campaign for the fight to get made & we can find out for sure.

[johnswan1]

Fvck it, let's just campaign for the fight to get made & we can find out for sure.

Have added a poll now as undefeated Bute vs undefeated Lacy actually an interesting debate.

[Counter-puncher]

[stujones]

Bute I think is a little more proven and has certainly done a bit better post their huge loses since.

BUT, and it is quite a big but, Bute also was more proven in that there were more question marks about could he handle pressure - the end of the Andrade fight and his general cluelessness in terms of survival instincts and he took a kicking against the much smaller GGG in the amateurs.

There were some warning signs, in hindsight, for Lacy - such as the Sheika struggle.... but nothing compared to Bute vs Andrade (which personally I did not find controversial but did show up some novicy survival instincts). In the main though Lacy was wrecking through several decent, but hardly top rung, super middleweights - it was hard to be negative about his abilities - but fair play Glenn McCory called it superbly.

So, I think its a bit of 6 of one, half dozen of the other.... which is the more meaningful win looking back over their careers - probably Bute.... which was the more dangerous fight at the time of the signing.... probably Lacy. However, both were clearly over hyped and over rated with hindsight.

Nice thread.

[PredatorHayds]

I really rated Lacy before Calzaghe.

I reckon Undefeated Lacy stops Bute late on.

Lacy seemed to perform better being undefeated and looked great.

The lose seemed to deny his confidence and his confidence was always one of his strengths.

Would of been a good fight.

[stujones]

I think an interesting question linked to this and to stir up the debate.... where they both very overated before their fights with the Brits or, where either "cobra'd" or "dragon'd" (to use Froch speak).

Is Bute's poor form since BECAUSE of Froch, or was the signs there before hand (e.g. Andrade) - what about Lacy - was that entirely due to Calzaghe, or were the signs there beforehand (e.g. Sheika).

[stujones]

I really rated Lacy before Calzaghe.

I reckon Undefeated Lacy stops Bute late on.

Lacy seemed to perform better being undefeated and looked great.

The lose seemed to deny his confidence and his confidence was always one of his strengths.

Would of been a good fight.

I'm inclined to agree - Lacy was slow, but Bute has got hurt by slow fighters before - e.g. Andrade and dare I say Froch. Whatever we think of Lacy, he had a chin of cast iron but possibly suspect stamina - but I think Left hook would have hurt and walloped Bute.

[johnswan1]

Great comments guys, but yes I agree without any doubt that the performances of Bute and Lacy since these fights were so bad because of the beatings they took and the effect it had on their confidence. Both defeats were humbling because both were complete beatdowns where no excuses whatsoever could be given by either man. For such high level fights the outcomes were as convincing and clear as they could possibly be and this must be a very difficult thing for an undefeated fighter in his prime to accept. They could have fought ten times afterwards and nobody could have picked Lacy or Bute to win any rematch. Bute actually had the option of a rematch in Canada but there wasn't as much of a whisper afterwards about whether he would ask for it.

[stujones]

Great comments guys, but yes I agree without any doubt that the performances of Bute and Lacy since these fights were so bad because of the beatings they took and the effect it had on their confidence. Both defeats were humbling because both were complete beatdowns where no excuses whatsoever could be given by either man. For such high level fights the outcomes were as convincing and clear as they could possibly be and this must be a very difficult thing for an undefeated fighter in his prime to accept. They could have fought ten times afterwards and nobody could have picked Lacy or Bute to win any rematch. Bute actually had the option of a rematch in Canada but there wasn't as much of a whisper afterwards about whether he would ask for it.

Infact his manager, honestly, said post fight on Sky "no" when they talked about a rematch clause - said what was the point.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Great comments guys, but yes I agree without any doubt that the performances of Bute and Lacy since these fights were so bad because of the beatings they took and the effect it had on their confidence. Both defeats were humbling because both were complete beatdowns where no excuses whatsoever could be given by either man. For such high level fights the outcomes were as convincing and clear as they could possibly be and this must be a very difficult thing for an undefeated fighter in his prime to accept. They could have fought ten times afterwards and nobody could have picked Lacy or Bute to win any rematch. Bute actually had the option of a rematch in Canada but there wasn't as much of a whisper afterwards about whether he would ask for it.

Would you? He looked totally out of his depth against Froch - I think Froch's fast start just completely undermined his confidence.

[johnswan1]

Great comments guys, but yes I agree without any doubt that the performances of Bute and Lacy since these fights were so bad because of the beatings they took and the effect it had on their confidence. Both defeats were humbling because both were complete beatdowns where no excuses whatsoever could be given by either man. For such high level fights the outcomes were as convincing and clear as they could possibly be and this must be a very difficult thing for an undefeated fighter in his prime to accept. They could have fought ten times afterwards and nobody could have picked Lacy or Bute to win any rematch. Bute actually had the option of a rematch in Canada but there wasn't as much of a whisper afterwards about whether he would ask for it.

Would you? He looked totally out of his depth against Froch - I think Froch's fast start just completely undermined his confidence.

Exactly. I loved that fight, it's the sort of fight you can just watch over and over beginning to end. I watched it in a bar in Madrid on a stag where I dragged a load of lads along to see it and they all wanted to see Froch fight again after seeing that. I remember after the weigh in or one of the press conferences Froch was saying he was surprised at how big Bute looked. Beforehand Bute seemed relaxed and confident and many felt they would be watching Carl's final farewell as he goes out on his shield. Overseas they wanted to see whether Bute could handle Carl with more ease than Ward did. The rest is history.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Great comments guys, but yes I agree without any doubt that the performances of Bute and Lacy since these fights were so bad because of the beatings they took and the effect it had on their confidence. Both defeats were humbling because both were complete beatdowns where no excuses whatsoever could be given by either man. For such high level fights the outcomes were as convincing and clear as they could possibly be and this must be a very difficult thing for an undefeated fighter in his prime to accept. They could have fought ten times afterwards and nobody could have picked Lacy or Bute to win any rematch. Bute actually had the option of a rematch in Canada but there wasn't as much of a whisper afterwards about whether he would ask for it.

Would you? He looked totally out of his depth against Froch - I think Froch's fast start just completely undermined his confidence.

Exactly. I loved that fight, it's the sort of fight you can just watch over and over beginning to end. I watched it in a bar in Madrid on a stag where I dragged a load of lads along to see it and they all wanted to see Froch fight again after seeing that. I remember after the weigh in or one of the press conferences Froch was saying he was surprised at how big Bute looked. Beforehand Bute seemed relaxed and confident and many felt they would be watching Carl's final farewell as he goes out on his shield. The rest is history.

I think it was Carl's best performance, he came out, and just took it straight to him, working behind a really stiff jab, didn't give Bute a moment to get into his own boxing.

The other one was Tatevosyan - a very slippery operator, who most expected to give Carl his hardest night's work to date, but Carl again boxed off the jab, started fast, and took him apart. I think Carl's versatility is a little bit underrated, he can adjust his gameplan to suit the opponent.

[johnswan1]

Here's a great preview of Bute-Froch, love the last line:

http://www.badlefthook.com/2012/5/25/30 ... sky-sports

One way or another, the Froch fight will teach us more about who Lucian Bute really is in the ring -- whether he's earned the accolades, or whether he's been a sheep in wolf's clothing all this time.

[danamba7]

Great comments guys, but yes I agree without any doubt that the performances of Bute and Lacy since these fights were so bad because of the beatings they took and the effect it had on their confidence. Both defeats were humbling because both were complete beatdowns where no excuses whatsoever could be given by either man. For such high level fights the outcomes were as convincing and clear as they could possibly be and this must be a very difficult thing for an undefeated fighter in his prime to accept. They could have fought ten times afterwards and nobody could have picked Lacy or Bute to win any rematch. Bute actually had the option of a rematch in Canada but there wasn't as much of a whisper afterwards about whether he would ask for it.

Would you? He looked totally out of his depth against Froch - I think Froch's fast start just completely undermined his confidence.

Exactly. I loved that fight, it's the sort of fight you can just watch over and over beginning to end. I watched it in a bar in Madrid on a stag where I dragged a load of lads along to see it and they all wanted to see Froch fight again after seeing that. I remember after the weigh in or one of the press conferences Froch was saying he was surprised at how big Bute looked. Beforehand Bute seemed relaxed and confident and many felt they would be watching Carl's final farewell as he goes out on his shield. Overseas they wanted to see whether Bute could handle Carl with more ease than Ward did. The rest is history.

100%. Must've watched it a dozen times!