The changing of the guard

[davie]

Since the retirement of Floyd we've discussed the p4p rankings constantly on here. I thought I'd look back a few years at the dramatic changes in the list in recent times
Below is the list from 2013

1. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

2. Andre Ward

3. Juan Manuel Marquez

4. Sergio Martinez

5. DELETED

6. Nonito Donaire

7. Manny Pacquiao

8. Wladimir Klitschko

9. Timothy Bradley

10. DELETED

Lots of old timers on there, lots of guy who had been in and around that list for a lot of years and a lot of names who aren't there any longer (and if they are, most likely wont be a great deal longer.) ***and 2 names which were so completely unworthy of mention I have had to delete them so Horse can take my point seriously***

***EDIT - The following point is the core message I was trying to convey in this thread, but was sadely lost as a result of Ring magazine stupidly listing Adrian Broner as a p4p contender, I can now only apologise for my part in Ring magazines decision making in 2012***
The list had become quite stagnant and largely unchanged for a number of years
It's gone through a huge overhaul, with Chocolatito, GGG, Kovalev, Crawford, Brook, Rigo, Canelo, Lara being on most peoples lists and Joshua, Usyk, Beterbiev, Lomachenko, Frampton, Yamanaka & Inoue etc likely to crash it soon. It's a refreshing change to the top of the boxing scene and quite an exciting time to be watching the sport.

[Boxing Prospect]

Sorry...how the fornicate was Guerrero ever on that list? :s

[Tony1244]

Sixteen years
Sixteen banners united over the field
Where the good shepherd grieves
Desperate men, desperate women divided
Spreading their wings 'neath falling leaves.

Fortune calls
I stepped forth from the shadows to the marketplace
Merchants and thieves, hungry for power, my last deal gone down
She's smelling sweet like the meadows where she was born
On midsummer's eve near the tower.

The cold-blooded moon
The captain waits above the celebration
Sending his thoughts to a beloved maid
Whose ebony face is beyond communication
The captain is down but still believing that his love will be repaid.

They shaved her head
She was torn between Jupiter and Apollo
A messenger arrived with a black nightingale
I seen her on the stairs and I couldn't help but follow
Follow her down past the fountain where they lifted her veil.

I stumbled to my feet
I rode past destruction in the ditches
With the stitches still mending beneath a heart-shaped tattoo
Renegade priests and treacherous young witches
Were handing out the flowers that I'd given to you.

The palace of mirrors
Where dog soldiers are reflected
The endless road and the wailing of chimes
The empty rooms where her memory is protected
Where the angel's voices whisper to the souls of previous times.

She wakes him up
Forty-eight hours later the sun is breaking
Near broken chains, mountain laurel and rolling rocks
She's begging to know what measures he now will be taking
He's pulling her down and she's clutching on to his long golden locks.
Gentlemen, he said I don't need your organization, I've shined your shoes
I've moved your mountains and marked your cards
But Eden is burning either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage for the changing of the guards.

Peace will come
With tranquillity and splendor on the wheels of fire
But will bring us no reward when her false idols fall
And cruel death surrenders with its pale ghost retreating
Between the King and the Queen of Swords.

Bob Dylan, Changing Of The Guards, Street Legal (1978).

[actjac]

Since the retirement of Floyd we've discussed the p4p rankings constantly on here. I thought I'd look back a few years at the dramatic changes in the list in recent times
Below is the list from 2013

1. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

2. Andre Ward

3. Juan Manuel Marquez

4. Sergio Martinez

5. Adrien Broner

6. Nonito Donaire

7. Manny Pacquiao

8. Wladimir Klitschko

9. Timothy Bradley

10. Robert Guerrero

Lots of old timers on there, lots of guy who had been in and around that list for a lot of years and a lot of names who aren't there any longer (and if they are, most likely wont be a great deal longer.)

The list had become quite stagnant and largely unchanged for a number of years
It's gone through a huge overhaul, with Chocolatito, GGG, Kovalev, Crawford, Brook, Rigo, Canelo, Lara being on most peoples lists and Joshua, Usyk, Beterbiev, Lomachenko, Frampton, Yamanaka & Inoue etc likely to crash it soon. It's a refreshing change to the top of the boxing scene and quite an exciting time to be watching the sport.

P4P is a stupid discussion. . . Nothing can ever be proven. . . Head to head competition is the only reality that exists in boxing otherwise its like debating whether a thoroughbred, a donkey, a zebra or a unicorn could win a race.

[ikorolev]

P4P is a stupid discussion. . . Nothing can ever be proven. . . Head to head competition is the only reality that exists in boxing otherwise its like debating whether a thoroughbred, a donkey, a zebra or a unicorn could win a race.

Exactly. Comparing current fighters with ones from 1950s-80s is even more stupid.

[Tanzio]

P4P is a stupid discussion. . . Nothing can ever be proven. . . Head to head competition is the only reality that exists in boxing otherwise its like debating whether a thoroughbred, a donkey, a zebra or a unicorn could win a race.

Exactly. Comparing current fighters with ones from 1950s-80s is even more stupid.

I disagree with both of you.

P4P is just for fun. It gives boxing enthusiasts more to talk about. It is really a discussion about the best boxers currently and historically. I think it is ignorant to think that you can even avoid making those comparisons.

There is no right answer in these discussions, only opinions. The p4p debate between Pac and FMJ fans fueled much of the interest in boxing over the last decade.

Comparing TC, 3G, WKlit etc., to their peers and to boxers of the past is interesting and natural. Claiming that it is "stupid" is naive at best.

[Boxerbeetle]

P4P is a stupid discussion. . . Nothing can ever be proven. . . Head to head competition is the only reality that exists in boxing otherwise its like debating whether a thoroughbred, a donkey, a zebra or a unicorn could win a race.

Exactly. Comparing current fighters with ones from 1950s-80s is even more stupid.

I disagree with both of you.

P4P is just for fun. It gives boxing enthusiasts more to talk about. It is really a discussion about the best boxers currently and historically. I think it is ignorant to think that you can even avoid making those comparisons.

There is no right answer in these discussions, only opinions. The p4p debate between Pac and FMJ fans fueled much of the interest in boxing over the last decade.

Comparing TC, 3G, WKlit etc., to their peers and to boxers of the past is interesting and natural. Claiming that it is "stupid" is naive at best.

Agree P4P can be a fun & interesting discussion. But, on this site at least, it hardly ever is - far too many fanboys & people lacking knowledge to actually have a sensible debate. And also people who take it waaaay too seriously.

[Ian1973]

Sorry...how the eff was Guerrero ever on that list? :s

How was Broner?

[Boxing Prospect]

Sorry...how the eff was Guerrero ever on that list? :s

How was Broner?

Equally as good a question..

[davie]

Since the retirement of Floyd we've discussed the p4p rankings constantly on here. I thought I'd look back a few years at the dramatic changes in the list in recent times
Below is the list from 2013

1. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

2. Andre Ward

3. Juan Manuel Marquez

4. Sergio Martinez

5. Adrien Broner

6. Nonito Donaire

7. Manny Pacquiao

8. Wladimir Klitschko

9. Timothy Bradley

10. Robert Guerrero

Lots of old timers on there, lots of guy who had been in and around that list for a lot of years and a lot of names who aren't there any longer (and if they are, most likely wont be a great deal longer.)

The list had become quite stagnant and largely unchanged for a number of years
It's gone through a huge overhaul, with Chocolatito, GGG, Kovalev, Crawford, Brook, Rigo, Canelo, Lara being on most peoples lists and Joshua, Usyk, Beterbiev, Lomachenko, Frampton, Yamanaka & Inoue etc likely to crash it soon. It's a refreshing change to the top of the boxing scene and quite an exciting time to be watching the sport.

P4P is a stupid discussion. . . Nothing can ever be proven. . . Head to head competition is the only reality that exists in boxing otherwise its like debating whether a thoroughbred, a donkey, a zebra or a unicorn could win a race.

If the best fought the best then perhaps h2h competition would have more of a say, but since we can't conclusively tell who the best is in any one weight division, we have to speculate.

Even if we had one definitive champion in every division, it would still be an interesting discussion discussing who we thought would be best across the divisions.

[Horse]

Since the retirement of Floyd we've discussed the p4p rankings constantly on here. I thought I'd look back a few years at the dramatic changes in the list in recent times
Below is the list from 2013

1. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
2. Andre Ward
3. Juan Manuel Marquez
4. Sergio Martinez
5. Adrien Broner
6. Nonito Donaire
7. Manny Pacquiao
8. Wladimir Klitschko
9. Timothy Bradley
10. Robert Guerrero

That list is an abomination. The P4P top 10 never looked like that.

[davie]

Since the retirement of Floyd we've discussed the p4p rankings constantly on here. I thought I'd look back a few years at the dramatic changes in the list in recent times
Below is the list from 2013

1. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
2. Andre Ward
3. Juan Manuel Marquez
4. Sergio Martinez
5. Adrien Broner
6. Nonito Donaire
7. Manny Pacquiao
8. Wladimir Klitschko
9. Timothy Bradley
10. Robert Guerrero

That list is an abomination. The P4P top 10 never looked like that.

Oh sorry, I never posted the official and undisputed Horse top-30 list.

That is the Ring magazine official p4p top 10 cut and pasted directly.
Here are the lists on Boxrec
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... und--2010s

Heres one from ring magazine explaining how the ranked them (broner had just beaten de marco and guerrera beat Berto)
http://ringtv.craveonline.com/news/1764 ... pound-no-1

[davie]

I think we've kind of missed the point of the thread to discuss p4p and who should/shouldn't be on the list

The point in the thread was
1. The list in 2012 was largely unchanged for several years, with several old timers.
2. People thought it needed fresh faces and worried for the state of boxing when the Floyds, Pacquiaos, Hopkins and Martinez retured
3. The list has seen a rapid turn over in names in the last 2-3 years
4. We should stop worrying about boxing dying, as new stars of the sport always come along and the current list is as exciting as we've seen for some time

[Horse]

Oh sorry, I never posted the official and undisputed Horse top-30 list.

That is the Ring magazine official p4p top 10 cut and pasted directly.
Here are the lists on Boxrec
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... und--2010s

Heres one from ring magazine explaining how the ranked them (broner had just beaten de marco and guerrera beat Berto)
http://ringtv.craveonline.com/news/1764 ... pound-no-1

The Ring lost a vast deal of credibility because of their absurd ranking of Broner.

Broner was never a real member of the P4P top 10.

Do not defend those rankings.

[Horse]

I think we've kind of missed the point of the thread to discuss p4p and who should/shouldn't be on the list

The point in the thread was
1. The list in 2012 was largely unchanged for several years, with several old timers.
2. People thought it needed fresh faces and worried for the state of boxing when the Floyds, Pacquiaos, Hopkins and Martinez retured
3. The list has seen a rapid turn over in names in the last 2-3 years
4. We should stop worrying about boxing dying, as new stars of the sport always come along and the current list is as exciting as we've seen for some time

The list is inaccurate.

You shouldn't have posted such a ridiculous list if you wanted the discussion to go the way you wanted it to.

[davie]

I think we've kind of missed the point of the thread to discuss p4p and who should/shouldn't be on the list

The point in the thread was
1. The list in 2012 was largely unchanged for several years, with several old timers.
2. People thought it needed fresh faces and worried for the state of boxing when the Floyds, Pacquiaos, Hopkins and Martinez retured
3. The list has seen a rapid turn over in names in the last 2-3 years
4. We should stop worrying about boxing dying, as new stars of the sport always come along and the current list is as exciting as we've seen for some time

The list is inaccurate.

You shouldn't have posted such a ridiculous list if you wanted the discussion to go the way you wanted it to.

Are you having withdrawal symptoms from arguing about boxing rankings and just couldn't wait until the 1st of the month to start your own argument.

Whether you agree with the list or not, as I demonstrated, it IS the Rings list from 2012.
I simply used it to demonstrate a point.
I never made the list up and I wouldn't have had Broner or Guerrero in there either.
However Broner and Guerrero were not even pertinent to that point, as the main focus of my OP was the mainstays on that list, the 'old guard' if you will, the likes of Floyd, Manny, Hopkins, JMM, Martinez etc. The guys who have been replaced by the next generation

[davie]

Oh sorry, I never posted the official and undisputed Horse top-30 list.

That is the Ring magazine official p4p top 10 cut and pasted directly.
Here are the lists on Boxrec
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... und--2010s

Heres one from ring magazine explaining how the ranked them (broner had just beaten de marco and guerrera beat Berto)
http://ringtv.craveonline.com/news/1764 ... pound-no-1

The Ring lost a vast deal of credibility because of their absurd ranking of Broner.

Broner was never a real member of the P4P top 10.

Do not defend those rankings.

Can you demonstrate to me, where I defended those rankings?
I simply provided links to disprove your assertion that the "top 10 p4p never looked like that"
The top 10 p4p had in fact looked exactly like that.

[Horse]

Are you having withdrawal symptoms from arguing about boxing rankings and just couldn't wait until the 1st of the month to start your own argument.

Whether you agree with the list or not, as I demonstrated, it IS the Rings list from 2012.
I simply used it to demonstrate a point.
I never made the list up and I wouldn't have had Broner or Guerrero in there either.
However Broner and Guerrero were not even pertinent to that point, as the main focus of my OP was the mainstays on that list, the 'old guard' if you will, the likes of Floyd, Manny, Hopkins, JMM, Martinez etc. The guys who have been replaced by the next generation

You should have posted a real list if you wanted to make your point without people mentioning that the list that you posted was bogus.

Can you demonstrate to me, where I defended those rankings?
I simply provided links to disprove your assertion that the "top 10 p4p never looked like that"
The top 10 p4p had in fact looked exactly like that.

No, the true P4P rankings never looked like that.

You are defending those rankings by suggesting that they are in any way credible.

[ikorolev]

davie, for Horse "true" is the same as "from Horse".

[Horse]

davie, for Horse "true" is the same as "from Horse".

No, but a list has to be at least somewhat accurate otherwise it should be dismissed as utter garbage, just like the Ring list that included Broner and Guerrero.

This thread was a farce from the start and Davie quite likely never intended for this to be a serious discussion.

[davie]

Are you having withdrawal symptoms from arguing about boxing rankings and just couldn't wait until the 1st of the month to start your own argument.

Whether you agree with the list or not, as I demonstrated, it IS the Rings list from 2012.
I simply used it to demonstrate a point.
I never made the list up and I wouldn't have had Broner or Guerrero in there either.
However Broner and Guerrero were not even pertinent to that point, as the main focus of my OP was the mainstays on that list, the 'old guard' if you will, the likes of Floyd, Manny, Hopkins, JMM, Martinez etc. The guys who have been replaced by the next generation

You should have posted a real list if you wanted to make your point without people mentioning that the list that you posted was bogus.

Can you demonstrate to me, where I defended those rankings?
I simply provided links to disprove your assertion that the "top 10 p4p never looked like that"
The top 10 p4p had in fact looked exactly like that.

No, the true P4P rankings never looked like that.

You are defending those rankings by suggesting that they are in any way credible.

What are you actually talking about you complete fud.
Bogus list?
What the fornicate?
I "should have posted a real list"?
It's the Ring magazine list. The actual published list you fornicating asshat.
What are the "true p4p" rankings? What constitutes a real list?
Has there ever been a p4p list that has not been disputed?
Have ring magazine ever published a list that someone hasn't been able to point to and say "he shouldn't be on there"?

You know, I might have been less inclined to get wound up, if the person posting this tripe wasn't the boards biggest offender of posting utter guff p4p lists.

[davie]

davie, for Horse "true" is the same as "from Horse".

No, but a list has to be at least somewhat accurate otherwise it should be dismissed as utter garbage, just like the Ring list that included Broner and Guerrero.

This thread was a farce from the start and Davie quite likely never intended for this to be a serious discussion.

Davie attempted to make a point
The thread quickly took a tangent
Davie attempted to steer it back on track
Horse turns up!
Thread's fucked.

Mods, kindly do us a favour, shut it down

[Baby Face Finster]

davie, for Horse "true" is the same as "from Horse".

No, but a list has to be at least somewhat accurate otherwise it should be dismissed as utter garbage, just like the Ring list that included Broner and Guerrero.

This thread was a farce from the start and Davie quite likely never intended for this to be a serious discussion.

Davie attempted to make a point
The thread quickly took a tangent
Davie attempted to steer it back on track
Horse turns up!
Thread's fucked.

Mods, kindly do us a favour, shut it down

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him accept a list!

[Horse]

What are you actually talking about you complete fud.

I'm talking sense.

Bogus list?
What the eff?
I "should have posted a real list"?
It's the Ring magazine list. The actual published list you effing asshat.
What are the "true p4p" rankings? What constitutes a real list?
Has there ever been a p4p list that has not been disputed?
Have ring magazine ever published a list that someone hasn't been able to point to and say "he shouldn't be on there"?

You know, I might have been less inclined to get wound up, if the person posting this tripe wasn't the boards biggest offender of posting utter guff p4p lists.

Any P4P top 10 with Broner in it is bogus. Fact.

A boxing fan with any serious knowledge about the sport would know that.

You are either trolling with that list or you are highly ignorant.

[Horse]

Davie attempted to make a point
The thread quickly took a tangent
Davie attempted to steer it back on track
Horse turns up!
Thread's fucked.

Mods, kindly do us a favour, shut it down

This thread never had a chance anyway.