Moore, Charles, Bivins, Maxim, Johnson

[davie]

The Light Heavyweight division of the 40s and 50s
Has there been a better era?

Younger fans like myself think of the glory days as the modern Welterweight division, the Barerra, Morales, marquez, Pacquiao era around feather weight, the Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran era and the heavyweight scene of the 70s

But the above names at light heavyweight must really take some beating. All ATGs, fought each other many times, there's a few top LHW names I've not mentioned there. Stepped up to face the best heavyweights of their era not to mention a few really quality MWs who stepped in with them as well

Has there been a stronger era in boxing history?

[Ambling Alp II]

That was an awesome era. A ton of talent and as you mentioned, the top guys fought each other, often multiple times. Don't believe Maxim and Johnson ever fought, but that may be the only one missing. That was probably the best light heavyweight era.

After that, the 1920s had a lot of really good light heavyweights. The late 1970s/early 1980s was tremendous as well.

[cfang]

Defo one of the best eras for a weight division - if not the best! What interesting though is how few of these great fighters got a chance at a title. Guess it was a race thing as usual and it shows if you were black back then you had to be twice as good to win the title. If you look at the champs from 40-60 Moore won the title and he had to wait until he was 36 to get a shot. Charles, Bivins didn't get a shot and Johnson only won the title in like 1962. in the meantime you had the limited Freddie Mills and Gus Lesnivich with the title. They made a huge mistake with Mills as brought Lloyd Marshall (who deserves more than a mention) over to fight him in 47' a year or so before he won the title and he was KOed in 5. I'd expect all the murderers row guys around lt heavy to have done the same. Youd have to include Eddie Booker and Holman Williams in that list too!

Wow what great fighters - tempted to agree - the lt heavy murderer's row fighters along with charles, johnson, moore and even maxim - what a group!

[davie]

Defo one of the best eras for a weight division - if not the best! What interesting though is how few of these great fighters got a chance at a title. Guess it was a race thing as usual and it shows if you were black back then you had to be twice as good to win the title. If you look at the champs from 40-60 Moore won the title and he had to wait until he was 36 to get a shot. Charles, Bivins didn't get a shot and Johnson only won the title in like 1962. in the meantime you had the limited Freddie Mills and Gus Lesnivich with the title. They made a huge mistake with Mills as brought Lloyd Marshall (who deserves more than a mention) over to fight him in 47' a year or so before he won the title and he was KOed in 5. I'd expect all the murderers row guys around lt heavy to have done the same. Youd have to include Eddie Booker and Holman Williams in that list too!

Wow what great fighters - tempted to agree - the lt heavy murderer's row fighters along with charles, johnson, moore and even maxim - what a group!

Since reading this I've done a little research on the murderers row group of fighters. What a story and adds even more to this already fantastic era which I was unaware of.
It begs the question, if the names I mentioned already, such as Moore, Charles, Bivins and Johnson, plus the 9 in the murderers row, found titles so hard to come by, due to the colour of there skin. How did Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong and the likes get their shot? And did these black fighters avoid the other great black fighters of there era? Or did the politics of the day prevent the getting the shot?

[Ambling Alp II]

It was unfair that some black fighters never got a title shot, no doubt about it.
If it came down to two guys who were roughly even and one was black and the white, the white fighter was almost always going to get the title shot.

We need to also remember a couple of things that were different then:
-There were still a lot of good white fighters in the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. So it was a pretty frequent occurrence to have white and black fighters that were roughly even.

-Also, there were not 4 "champions" in each weight class. There also were not divisions at 154,168 or cruiserweight. There simply were not nearly as many title fights back then, so less opportunities.

Armstrong, Charles, Moore, Robinson etc. were so good that they could not be ignored. However, even most of them had to wait a long time before they ever got a title shot.

I don't think they avoided fighting other black fighters. They beat some both good and white fighters to earn their title shots. Then once champion, many of their title fights were against white challengers who roughly even with black challengers.

[Ambling Alp II]

Just for the fun of it, I compiled the head to head records of the five guys mentioned and added them up. (Some of the fights would not be considered light heavyweight fights)

Against the other 4, Charles had a record of 12-2
Moore was 11-5
Johnson was 3-4
Bivins was 3-10
Maxim was 1-9

The only matchup that never occurred was Johnson vs Maxim

[King Carlos]

I think the 70s was the best decade for the division, personally.

[cfang]

Just for the fun of it, I compiled the head to head records of the five guys mentioned and added them up. (Some of the fights would not be considered light heavyweight fights)

Against the other 4, Charles had a record of 12-2
Moore was 11-5
Johnson was 3-4
Bivins was 3-10
Maxim was 1-9

The only matchup that never occurred was Johnson vs Maxim

[elmersalsa]

It was unfair that some black fighters never got a title shot, no doubt about it.
If it came down to two guys who were roughly even and one was black and the white, the white fighter was almost always going to get the title shot.

We need to also remember a couple of things that were different then:
-There were still a lot of good white fighters in the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. So it was a pretty frequent occurrence to have white and black fighters that were roughly even.

-Also, there were not 4 "champions" in each weight class. There also were not divisions at 154,168 or cruiserweight. There simply were not nearly as many title fights back then, so less opportunities.

Armstrong, Charles, Moore, Robinson etc. were so good that they could not be ignored. However, even most of them had to wait a long time before they ever got a title shot.

I don't think they avoided fighting other black fighters. They beat some both good and white fighters to earn their title shots. Then once champion, many of their title fights were against white challengers who roughly even with black challengers.

Add also the World War II in stopping some of the momentum of some fighters that were very good, enlisted in the US Armed Forces. Some European boxers did the same for their country.

As for great black fighters that didn't get a shot to a title and fight the best white American contenders, I believe that many of them didn't had the right management and boxing commission connections. Plus, even that they were very good, some of them were not as colorful like the greats of Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong and Kid Gavilan. We could come into conclusion that those 3 greats had the proper connections, aside their tremendous talent for greatness.

Or just simply, some very good black fighters were victims of the times. Some of them got the spotlight, some of them didn't. There wasn't an opportunity for everybody I guess.

[BoxBuzz]

Just for the fun of it, I compiled the head to head records of the five guys mentioned and added them up. (Some of the fights would not be considered light heavyweight fights)

Against the other 4, Charles had a record of 12-2
Moore was 11-5
Johnson was 3-4
Bivins was 3-10
Maxim was 1-9

The only matchup that never occurred was Johnson vs Maxim

I believe there is a fighter in that group that Charles never had a win over correct? Or no?

[cfang]

Been browsing the records of some of these guys and Bivins is an interesting one. He clearly had a prime and carried on long after that prime so his rep is somewhat tarnished. However, look at his record from the early- mid 40s. From 42-46 he was unbeaten and beat this lot

Maxim, Maurillio, Pastor, Savold, Christoforidis, Valentino, Marshall, Murray. Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore! That's some run jimmy went on right there. Not many all time greats can claim such a run!

[elmersalsa]

Been browsing the records of some of these guys and Bivins is an interesting one. He clearly had a prime and carried on long after that prime so his rep is somewhat tarnished. However, look at his record from the early- mid 40s. From 42-46 he was unbeaten and beat this lot

Maxim, Maurillio, Pastor, Savold, Christoforidis, Valentino, Marshall, Murray. Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore! That's some run jimmy went on right there. Not many all time greats can claim such a run!

Jimmy Bivins definitely is one of the top 20 all time light heavyweight greats.

[Ambling Alp II]

Just for the fun of it, I compiled the head to head records of the five guys mentioned and added them up. (Some of the fights would not be considered light heavyweight fights)

Against the other 4, Charles had a record of 12-2
Moore was 11-5
Johnson was 3-4
Bivins was 3-10
Maxim was 1-9

The only matchup that never occurred was Johnson vs Maxim

I believe there is a fighter in that group that Charles never had a win over correct? Or no?

That is correct. He was 0-1 vs Harold Johnson.

[davie]

Been browsing the records of some of these guys and Bivins is an interesting one. He clearly had a prime and carried on long after that prime so his rep is somewhat tarnished. However, look at his record from the early- mid 40s. From 42-46 he was unbeaten and beat this lot

Maxim, Maurillio, Pastor, Savold, Christoforidis, Valentino, Marshall, Murray. Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore! That's some run jimmy went on right there. Not many all time greats can claim such a run!

I was amazed at this too.
I knew about Moore, Charles and Maxim but was unfamiliar with the name Bivins (as I was with the murderers row fighters) but his record stands up there with some if those top names and it's a wonder he isn't held in such high regard (or if he is, i'm surprised I hadn't heard much about him.) clearly a fantastic fighter at his best

[BoxBuzz]

Just for the fun of it, I compiled the head to head records of the five guys mentioned and added them up. (Some of the fights would not be considered light heavyweight fights)

Against the other 4, Charles had a record of 12-2
Moore was 11-5
Johnson was 3-4
Bivins was 3-10
Maxim was 1-9

The only matchup that never occurred was Johnson vs Maxim

I believe there is a fighter in that group that Charles never had a win over correct? Or no?

That is correct. He was 0-1 vs Harold Johnson.

How did Moore do vs Johnson?

[davie]

I believe there is a fighter in that group that Charles never had a win over correct? Or no?

That is correct. He was 0-1 vs Harold Johnson.

How did Moore do vs Johnson?

4-1
Moore with 3 x 10 round UD wins
Moore also got a 14th round stoppage in a close fight
Johnson got a 10 round UD win

[BoxBuzz]

That is correct. He was 0-1 vs Harold Johnson.

How did Moore do vs Johnson?

4-1
Moore with 3 x 10 round UD wins
Moore also got a 14th round stoppage in a close fight
Johnson got a 10 round UD win

Hear that Ezz fans? Styles make fights. But it don't necessarily make you the better fighter.

Jaclem...I'm talkin to you.

[Ambling Alp II]

Styles don't make fights; they can only influence them.
Charles was 0-1 vs Johnson, Moore was 0-3 vs Charles.
The Charles-Johnson fight was close. If they fought two more times, it's very likely that Charles would have won at least once.

I think Charles was a little better than Moore, who was a little better than Johnson, who was a little better than Bivins, who was a little better than Maxim.

[BoxBuzz]

Styles don't make fights; they can only influence them.
Charles was 0-1 vs Johnson, Moore was 0-3 vs Charles.
The Charles-Johnson fight was close. If they fought two more times, it's very likely that Charles would have won at least once.

I think Charles was a little better than Moore, who was a little better than Johnson, who was a little better than Bivins, who was a little better than Maxim.

Bivins and Johnson are hard to sort....but the record is clear, if not indicative of their respective positions.

[Scypion]

Ezzard Charles was a little past it when he fought Harold Johnson. He was 32 and had already lost to Walcott twice.

In his bouts with Moore, Charles knocked Moore down in his first two fights with Archie and knocked Moore out in their third fight.

Charles was devastating in the light heavyweight division during the 1940's. The light heavyweight champs wanted no part of him. After Ezzard killed someone in a fight, he became more conservative, not wanting to hurt anyone. Charles went on to win the heavyweight championship despite this.

[Nile4000]

The Light Heavyweight division of the 40s and 50s
Has there been a better era?

Younger fans like myself think of the glory days as the modern Welterweight division, the Barerra, Morales, marquez, Pacquiao era around feather weight, the Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran era and the heavyweight scene of the 70s

But the above names at light heavyweight must really take some beating. All ATGs, fought each other many times, there's a few top LHW names I've not mentioned there. Stepped up to face the best heavyweights of their era not to mention a few really quality MWs who stepped in with them as well

Has there been a stronger era in boxing history?

Mid to late 70's light heavies was no joke.

[davie]

The Light Heavyweight division of the 40s and 50s
Has there been a better era?

Younger fans like myself think of the glory days as the modern Welterweight division, the Barerra, Morales, marquez, Pacquiao era around feather weight, the Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran era and the heavyweight scene of the 70s

But the above names at light heavyweight must really take some beating. All ATGs, fought each other many times, there's a few top LHW names I've not mentioned there. Stepped up to face the best heavyweights of their era not to mention a few really quality MWs who stepped in with them as well

Has there been a stronger era in boxing history?

Mid to late 70's light heavies was no joke.

Good bump Nile.
This thread was part of me looking into some of my favorite fighters and gave me some good info and brought up some interesting stuff for me.

This is what I loved about this forum, ask a question and get more info than you bargained for.

[Sidney Carton]

1920's lightheavyweights included Jack Delaney, Tommy Loughran, Paul Berlenbach, Mike McTigue, Jim Braddock, Jimmy Slattery

[Nile4000]

The Light Heavyweight division of the 40s and 50s
Has there been a better era?

Younger fans like myself think of the glory days as the modern Welterweight division, the Barerra, Morales, marquez, Pacquiao era around feather weight, the Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran era and the heavyweight scene of the 70s

But the above names at light heavyweight must really take some beating. All ATGs, fought each other many times, there's a few top LHW names I've not mentioned there. Stepped up to face the best heavyweights of their era not to mention a few really quality MWs who stepped in with them as well

Has there been a stronger era in boxing history?

Mid to late 70's light heavies was no joke.

Good bump Nile.
This thread was part of me looking into some of my favorite fighters and gave me some good info and brought up some interesting stuff for me.

This is what I loved about this forum, ask a question and get more info than you bargained for.

Thanks, davie . That time period was no joke. Bivins and Charles should have gotten their title shots and titles. Amazing that Charles was 3-0 against Moore, and 5-0 against Maxim.

[Nile4000]

1920's lightheavyweights included Jack Delaney, Tommy Loughran, Paul Berlenbach, Mike McTigue, Jim Braddock, Jimmy Slattery

Great class of light heavies. Interesting that a couple of these guys lost to middleweights, and one got kayoed by a welterweight.