Ellis vs Liston - 1969

[Scypion]

I would take a prime Liston to take a prime Jimmy Ellis, but what about Ellis vs a past his prime Sonny in 1969 when Liston had some of his last fights. He had one fight in 1970 with Chuck Wepner. Sonny turned 37 in May of 1969, if that info is correct (there were rumors that Sonny was actually older).

Jimmy Ellis won the WBA tournament to decide their heavyweight title beating Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, and Jerry Quarry, and defended that title once in 1968 against Floyd Patterson.

Anyway, in 1969, Ellis had 3 championship bouts fall through (Bob Cleroux, Henry Cooper, and Greg Peralta) and ended up having not any defenses of his WBA title that year.

Sonny Liston was still ranked in the top ten contenders (heavyweight) by Ring Magazine, so that fight could have been a good draw I guess, and an interesting match up. There were also guys like Mac Foster and Alvin "Blue" Lewis, but Ellis never got around to any of them.

So, who wins in a 15 round bout between Jimmy Ellis and Sonny Liston in 1969 for the WBA crown.

[Ambling Alp II]

I would pick Ellis, though Liston would have an outside chance. Ellis was probably too quick for Liston at this stage of his career, and Ellis was a smart fighter. Ellis by decision.

[Scypion]

I would pick Ellis, though Liston would have an outside chance. Ellis was probably too quick for Liston at this stage of his career, and Ellis was a smart fighter. Ellis by decision.

Thanks for the response.

I pretty much agree with your assessment, although with what happened late in 1969 with Liston in his fight with Leotis Martin, Ellis might have done to Sonny what Martin did sometime after 7 or 8 rounds.

Looking back, it's too bad that Jimmy didn't get a fight with Sonny in 1969. At least he would have gotten a payday in 1969, and a win against even an old Liston would have been a good thing for him. Also, a loss to Sonny probably would have saved him from the 1970 beating he got from Joe Frazier.

[Ambling Alp II]

Always thought Ellis was a bit rusty for the Frazier fight. (Not that he would have won anyway.) 17 months between fights is too long. Had he had at least one fight in between the Patterson fight and the Frazier fight, he probably would have made a better showing against Frazier.

A good fight against Liston (or someone else decent) may have kept him sharp.

[Scypion]

Always thought Ellis was a bit rusty for the Frazier fight. (Not that he would have won anyway.) 17 months between fights is too long. Had he had at least one fight in between the Patterson fight and the Frazier fight, he probably would have made a better showing against Frazier.

A good fight against Liston (or someone else decent) may have kept him sharp.

That is true. 17 months is just too long. As much as I like Jimmy Ellis, he was no match for Joe Frazier in 1970 or any other time, IMO. Frazier was just too strong and too good for Jimmy to beat, even at his very best, and Joe's left hook would always get to Ellis sooner or later.

Getting back to Ellis/Liston in 1969, Jimmy would have Dundee in his corner and Ali to give him tips on what the best way to fight Sonny, as they had some experience with that.

[Kalan]

Ellis would beat a 50-year-old Liston... Liston spent several years locked up in prison and got a very late start in pro Boxing... Liston's manager and advisor, Jack Nilon, revealed privately that Liston had 25 brothers and sisters... Liston had a brother about 10 years younger also named Charles. Liston used his younger brother's birth certificate because some states and commissions had a 36 years age limit for boxers in those days.

The Liston of the mid to Late 1950's was an extremely formidable fighter who had a blend of experience and relative youth, still probably in his 30's... The version who quickly knocked out Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez, and Mike DeJohn in 1959 would have beaten a lot of heavyweight Champions. A young Liston had a great jab, could slip and duck punches well, and counterpunch the crap out top ranked Heavyweights.. Patterson cleverly ducked Liston for many years until Sonny was obviously aging -- but Liston was the worst style matchup imaginable for Patterson.. Liston trashed Patterson like he was a rank amateur.. Most People though Patterson had far the better of Jimmy Ellis.. I had Patterson beating Ellis by 5 rounds.

[BoxBuzz]

I think your Liston birth certificate theory was debunked. Not sure of that, but you can follow up if your interested. I think the documentation is out there that sorts that.

[Kalan]

I think your Liston birth certificate theory was debunked. Not sure of that, but you can follow up if your interested. I think the documentation is out there that sorts that.

The documentation out there is very poor that shows Liston was his advertised age... He looked at least 10 years older than his advertised age when he fought Muhammad Ali and well after that... People commented on his less than youthful appearance often... It's well documented that he had 25 siblings... Jack Nilon's story makes sense given the number of years Liston spent in prison and had cut out of his pro career by going back to prison... Also, during the 3 years prior to fighting Ali, I saw that Liston only fought 3 partial rounds or less than 6 minutes total... I study those things ... and I thought Liston's lack of activity would really hurt his chances as well.

[Scypion]

Ellis would beat a 50-year-old Liston... Liston spent several years locked up in prison and got a very late start in pro Boxing... Liston's manager and advisor, Jack Nilon, revealed privately that Liston had 25 brothers and sisters... Liston had a brother about 10 years younger also named Charles. Liston used his younger brother's birth certificate because some states and commissions had a 36 years age limit for boxers in those days.

The Liston of the mid to Late 1950's was an extremely formidable fighter who had a blend of experience and relative youth, still probably in his 30's... The version who quickly knocked out Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez, and Mike DeJohn in 1959 would have beaten a lot of heavyweight Champions. A young Liston had a great jab, could slip and duck punches well, and counterpunch the crap out top ranked Heavyweights.. Patterson cleverly ducked Liston for many years until Sonny was obviously aging -- but Liston was the worst style matchup imaginable for Patterson.. Liston trashed Patterson like he was a rank amateur.. Most People though Patterson had far the better of Jimmy Ellis.. I had Patterson beating Ellis by 5 rounds.

About Patterson/Liston: Liston was just too big and strong for Patterson, who really should have fought as a light heavyweight, except for the money. Patterson made much more as a heavyweight, but may have never lost as a light heavy (Most people thought Floyd got screwed in the Maxim fight).

Patterson/Ellis: I thought that Patterson won the Ellis fight too. However, Ellis was a very good boxer IMO. He fought in a bad era with superstars Ali and Frazier and even an over the hill Patterson could be tough. Outside of them, a prime Ellis was as good or better than just about anyone else.

As far as Patterson ducking Liston, it was his manager Cus D'Amato that did it. After Floyd and Cus split, Patterson agreed to fight Liston. Floyd should have fought Eddie Machen and Zora Folley (who were the top 2 contenders in 1957) first after disposing of Tommy "Hurricane" Jackson. I personally think that Floyd would have beaten Machen or Folley during the late 50's, but Cus would not let Floyd fight them.

Machen and Folley had a match with the winner to fight Floyd during the late 50's (an elimination fight). When the fight ended in a draw, D'Amato said that they eliminated each other.

[Kalan]

Machen and Folley had a match with the winner to fight Floyd during the late 50's (an elimination fight). When the fight ended in a draw, D'Amato said that they eliminated each other.

In the 1950's Bob Baker and Nino Valez had a "Heavyweight Elimination Fight" with the winner to fight Marciano...Bob Baker won but Al Weil and Charley Goldman said, "Did you see that mess??? Those 2 guys eliminated each other. No way Baker fights for the Title." They didn't want Marciano fighting any big guys. Nino Valdez beat Ezzard Charles in 1953 to become the #1 contender.. But Goldman and Weil wanted to fight Charles. Charles also lost to Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson the following month. Nevertheless Charles got a couple of wins and was matched with Marciano.

[Scypion]

Ducking goes way back I think. Ezzard Charles was the best light heavy during most of the 1940's, but could not get a shot at that title.

Back to Jimmy Ellis. I guess that he just wasn't the draw that boxers like Ali, Frazier, and even Patterson were. I think that this was proven in 1969 when he was going to defend his WBA title in Argentina against Greg Peralta, who was from Argentina. The fight was cancelled about 24 hours before the fight because of poor ticket sales.

One thing that may have hurt Ellis was the Patterson fight that most thought was a robbery. Also, I think that many did not take the WBA Heavyweight Championship very seriously. Most still considered Muhammad Ali to still be the champion, and Joe Frazier to be the best around other than Ali.

Too bad because Jimmy Ellis was a very good boxer. He beat people like George Chuvalo, Jerry Quarry, Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, Johnny Persol, and Holly Mims when he was a middleweight.

I think people looked at Ellis as Muhammad Ali's buddy and sparring partner and didn't really think that he was that much as a fighter. I used to think that myself, but now see that I was wrong.

[Scypion]

I think that Jimmy Ellis going with Angelo Dundee was kind of a double edged sword for Jimmy.

With Dundee, Ellis would always be a second banana to Muhammad Ali. Of course, Jimmy probably made more money with Angelo, and got to be WBA Heavyweight Champion. He also had some fun fighting on Ali's under cards before winning the WBA tournament, and also fighting Ali in exhibitions (3). Fun because he got to travel to Europe in some of those fights and I imagine that all involved in those fights in Dundee's camp had good times then.

If not for going with Angelo, Ellis may have given up boxing and found another line of work, or may have continued to box, but never would have gotten the opportunities that he got.

I am sure that there were lots of good times, and some good money at times, but he was always overshadowed by Muhammad Ali right up to when they fought in 1971. I think that the Ali loss was hard for Ellis to take because it was about a couple of years before he fought a serious contender again (Shavers). In the mean time, Jimmy had eight fights with boxers that figured to be not much of a match for him, and Ellis knocked out all of them.

Also, I think that Jimmy Ellis was used to test future opponents of Ali like Joe Frazier, Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner, and George Chuvalo.

Maybe the good outweighed the bad. Maybe.