Heavyweight Non-title Fights

[Ambling Alp II]

Thought this might be interesting.
Often overlooked, but there have been many key non-title fights which have shaped heavyweight history. Just think, if the guy who won had lost, would he have gotton a title shot down the road? Would a loss have hurt his all time ranking? Maybe the loss severely hurt the reputation of the loser.

Anyway, here are a few:

Lewis-Mercer
Young-Norton
Ali-Frazier
Baer-Schmeling
Schmeling-Louis


What are some other crucial non title heavyweights?

[allInmoderationAIM]

Sharkey-Dempsey

[sweetsci]

Marciano-Louis
Johansson-Machen
Ali-Quarry I
Young-Foreman
Norton-Bobick
Shavers-Norton
Coetzee-Spinks
Spinks-Mercado
Lewis-Ruddock
Bowe-Golota
Holyfield-Rahman

[allInmoderationAIM]

Marciano-Louis
Johansson-Machen
Ali-Quarry I
Young-Foreman
Norton-Bobick
Shavers-Norton
Coetzee-Spinks
Spinks-Mercado
Lewis-Ruddock
Bowe-Golota
Holyfield-Rahman

Ambling Amp, what do you think
Of this mentality? Coetzee-Spinks huh?
Norton-Bobick? Derailing of one man's career there, YES!

[APerno]

Braddock screwed over three heavyweight contenders in a row during his 'cinderella' run; each would of likely gotten a shot if they had gotten by Braddock - Corn Griffin / John Henry Lewis / Art Lasky (of course Lewis did get his shot, but when it was too late)

[evrenb]

Ali vs Henry Cooper 1
Ali vs Doug Jones
Frazier vs bonavena
Patterson vs Tommy Jackson 1
Marciano vs la starza 1
Norton vs young
Tyson vs tillis

I think I get the gist of the thread

[allInmoderationAIM]

Lewis-Mercer Elementry, Norton-Young ### Elementry, Frazier-Ali, well of course. Baer-Schmeling not certain how it "effect history". But, certainly it is a unique clog in heavyweight division history no doubt. (Seem NOT to effect anything ha ha. But it did! Would Baer of had shot at Louis instead? Could Baer of killed Louis OR, we'd had same result as when they did eventually meet?? We'll never know answer here of course. But..it's intriguing) Schmeling-Louis 1 you know, it's a big but did it alter course? It's a big!
My select of Dempsey-Sharkey everyone knows that was a -KEY- match. If Sharkey had won as it was headed it would of derailed Tunney rematch. Marciano-Louis I don't see much there. Johansson-Machen. I'll have to do restudy and I will. I'm not sure because it is so antient and it's been while since I looked at that. Yeah sure. Key match as far as keeping the course. Machen favored??
Ali-Quarry 1? How does it fit? Was it a juiced match? Sure!
Young-Foreman. Yeah! You could say! Ha,Ha!
Norton-Bobick? How? I think this effected one career certainly that's about it. If Bobick had won?? It is so complete there that..it's beyond reason. Yeah. Sure! I liked Duane Bobick too and yet consider the man a dignitary. Shavers-Norton I don't get it?? Norton near the end. You might as well include Norton-Scott LeDoux then! May as well. Is the Shavers match vs Norton more valuable than Shavers vs Joe Bugner? Their ISN'T much difference. Coetzee-Spinks? O.K., what angel am I missing HA HA HA. "Real History!" It is..but how much it measure what did it do? --Spinks-Mercado-- I'll have to dig that up. About as important as Jose King Roman - Jack O'Halloran or Pedro Lovell - Terry Kreuger 1 (but...fill me in what I'm missing because I always LIKE TO KNOW!) Lennox vs Razor rather Elementry isn't it? No? OH SURE, IF LENNOX HAD LOST!
Bowe-Golota -YEAH- got you! Yes, influential fights.
Holy-Rahman hmm..see..I've gone and forgot. Must relook hate to be a ignorant fool ha ha! [I'm getting me a regular job soon, I swear! : ) Isn't no Don Trump about this pay!]
Braddock! Thank YOU APerno than is a noble entry. NO DOUBT!
Ali W Henry Cooper 1. Yes and no. Yes. But..seems to me that match-up carries less significance than Dempsey-Sharkey talking KEY. It mostly was a unique for the Ali mistic added intrigue that's all. Of course, it is a master piece in the Henry Cooper galleries. Made him "forever famous" but....it ISN'T any "barn burner in HVYwt div history" if you ask me....
Ali - Doug Jones. Sure. I guess. How close was that really?
Frazier - Bonavena? Yeah! Bonavena made for things like that. Frazier got past Oscar barely!
Patterson - Tommy Jackson 1. I'll have to research it because it went out really. Sure! I know their IS HISTORY there!
Marciano - LaStarza 1. Yeah.
Tyson - Tillis? How? Because James became the first or second to go distance vs Tyson? How's that match fit in on what Ambling Alp II is asking?
Are we only talking here all matches that have value?
LeDoux-Leon has better "value" than Tyson-Tillis.
Tillis- the W vs Shavers has better value than Tyson-Tillis. The match Shavers lost coming back after loss to Jerry Quarry vs Bob Stalling's has better *value than Tyson-Tillis.
Mater of fact: Jerry Quarry vs Ernie Shavers AND Quarry vs Ron Lyle probably both key H. matches especially Lyle. That win gave Quarry better career.

[writehooks]

Floyd Patterson vs. George Chuvalo -- Ring Magazine's "Fight of the Year" in 1965. Agreements were signed by Patterson, Chuvalo, Ali and Liston ahead of the Feb 1 title eliminator at MSG that the winner would fight the winner of the Ali-Liston rematch. Chuvalo dropped a razor-thin decision, but had he defeated Floyd, his vicious body punching and legendary durability might have proved too much for Ali in mid-'65, when George was in much better shape than for their (first) meeting in March '66 -- which Chuvalo accepted on just 17 days' notice.

[dr_devious]

Going further back the Langford / Mcvey / Jeanette / Wills series of non-title fights were significant

[sweetviolenturge]

Floyd Patterson vs. George Chuvalo -- Ring Magazine's "Fight of the Year" in 1965. Agreements were signed by Patterson, Chuvalo, Ali and Liston ahead of the Feb 1 title eliminator at MSG that the winner would fight the winner of the Ali-Liston rematch. Chuvalo dropped a razor-thin decision, but had he defeated Floyd, his vicious body punching and legendary durability might have proved too much for Ali in mid-'65, when George was in much better shape than for their (first) meeting in March '66 -- which Chuvalo accepted on just 17 days' notice.

I love it!
I've been a rabid fight fan ever since I was a snot-nosed kid of 14 back in 1976 & yet, if memory serves me, this is the first time that I've heard that Chuvalo took his title fight with Ali on (very) short notice. Can you share with me the details surrounding that? Who was Ali originally scheduled to fight? I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks much.
Peace.

[Kalan]

Schmeling-Louis didn't alter history -- but it should have... Schmeling should have gotten a shot at Braddock as promised... He was damned near blackballed.

Luis Ortiz vs Bryant Jennings should have altered history... but it didn't... Ortiz looked unbelievable and hasn't gotten a decent fight since.

Dempsey-Sharkey didn't alter history much... Tunney would have beaten Sharkey handily...

[bwu]

Floyd Patterson vs. George Chuvalo -- Ring Magazine's "Fight of the Year" in 1965. Agreements were signed by Patterson, Chuvalo, Ali and Liston ahead of the Feb 1 title eliminator at MSG that the winner would fight the winner of the Ali-Liston rematch. Chuvalo dropped a razor-thin decision, but had he defeated Floyd, his vicious body punching and legendary durability might have proved too much for Ali in mid-'65, when George was in much better shape than for their (first) meeting in March '66 -- which Chuvalo accepted on just 17 days' notice.

I love it!
I've been a rabid fight fan ever since I was a snot-nosed kid of 14 back in 1976 & yet, if memory serves me, this is the first time that I've heard that Chuvalo took his title fight with Ali on (very) short notice. Can you share with me the details surrounding that? Who was Ali originally scheduled to fight? I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks much.
Peace.

Ali was supposed to fight WBA champion Ernie Terrell in Chicago. The Illinois commission tossed the fight out because of Ali's anti-war remarks. They couldn't get it moved elsewhere in the U.S. and then Terrell backed out.

[BoxBuzz]

Schmeling-Louis didn't alter history -- but it should have... Schmeling should have gotten a shot at Braddock as promised... He was damned near blackballed.

Luis Ortiz vs Bryant Jennings should have altered history... but it didn't... Ortiz looked unbelievable and hasn't gotten a decent fight since.

Dempsey-Sharkey didn't alter history much... Tunney would have beaten Sharkey handily...

Well Max was from a country that was considered a bit politically incorrect at the time, and you know how that goes. Though that was one occasion where those accusing others of being politically incorrect were justified.

[APerno]

Floyd Patterson vs. George Chuvalo -- Ring Magazine's "Fight of the Year" in 1965. Agreements were signed by Patterson, Chuvalo, Ali and Liston ahead of the Feb 1 title eliminator at MSG that the winner would fight the winner of the Ali-Liston rematch. Chuvalo dropped a razor-thin decision, but had he defeated Floyd, his vicious body punching and legendary durability might have proved too much for Ali in mid-'65, when George was in much better shape than for their (first) meeting in March '66 -- which Chuvalo accepted on just 17 days' notice.

I love it!
I've been a rabid fight fan ever since I was a snot-nosed kid of 14 back in 1976 & yet, if memory serves me, this is the first time that I've heard that Chuvalo took his title fight with Ali on (very) short notice. Can you share with me the details surrounding that? Who was Ali originally scheduled to fight? I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks much.
Peace.

Ali was supposed to fight WBA champion Ernie Terrell in Chicago. The Illinois commission tossed the fight out because of Ali's anti-war remarks. They couldn't get it moved elsewhere in the U.S. and then Terrell backed out.

But they did fight in'67 - Huston Astrodome - right! - Did I miss read what you were saying?

[bwu]

I love it!
I've been a rabid fight fan ever since I was a snot-nosed kid of 14 back in 1976 & yet, if memory serves me, this is the first time that I've heard that Chuvalo took his title fight with Ali on (very) short notice. Can you share with me the details surrounding that? Who was Ali originally scheduled to fight? I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks much.
Peace.

Ali was supposed to fight WBA champion Ernie Terrell in Chicago. The Illinois commission tossed the fight out because of Ali's anti-war remarks. They couldn't get it moved elsewhere in the U.S. and then Terrell backed out.

But they did fight in'67 - Huston Astrodome - right! - Did I miss read what you were saying?

Yes, Ali and Terrell did fight in '67. My response was based on the question about Chuvalo getting a title fight on short notice. It was because the first Ali-Terrell fell apart.

[APerno]

Ali was supposed to fight WBA champion Ernie Terrell in Chicago. The Illinois commission tossed the fight out because of Ali's anti-war remarks. They couldn't get it moved elsewhere in the U.S. and then Terrell backed out.

But they did fight in'67 - Huston Astrodome - right! - Did I miss read what you were saying?

Yes, Ali and Terrell did fight in '67. My response was based on the question about Chuvalo getting a title fight on short notice. It was because the first Ali-Terrell fell apart.

OK got it - the '66 Chuvalo fight - I was looking t the '72 Ali-Chuvalo (NABF Title) fight and couldn't put the sentence together - sorry - I think what tripped me up was that I didn't know that Ali was making anti-war remarks as early as '66

[Syntax Error]

Bowe v Holyfield 3 - Huge non title fight; bigger than the so-called championship fights of that era.

Evander got KOd, stank in his next fight & still got a shot at the title a year later!

[sweetsci]

Bowe v Holyfield 3 - Huge non title fight; bigger than the so-called championship fights of that era.

Evander got KOd, stank in his next fight & still got a shot at the title a year later!

Good call! 'Course he got the title fight BECAUSE he got KO'd by Bowe & then stank in his next fight. Tyson - Holyfield was supposed to be an easy defense against a big name but shot opponent.

[Crease]

There were a lot of really great ones back in the 40s & 50s... When all the top contenders fought each other regularly.

[Bodyshot3]

@evrenb.....good call on the first Ali-Cooper fight

It has been discussed at great length on the board; but a stoppage loss to Henry might have badly dented Ali's immense, almost intimidating, self-confidence and very much delayed his rise to supremacy. And just perhaps, he'd have been more cautious for a while?

The fight (ultimately) proved to be just a nasty moment for Ali rather than a shocking stoppage loss that might have made him rethink things.

Strangely, I don't see a 'victorious' Cooper moving onto rule the world with Liston waiting in the wings and I still think Ali would have returned to London and won a rematch. Cooper's folk were not keen on Liston at all and it would take Ali's different-unique skills to unseat Sonny.

Lewis-Mason is another that springs to mind; very much viewed as an 'acid test' for Lewis with a big pro-Mason crowd in at the Wembley Arena and Gary also being unbeaten, fired-up and a proper bull of a heavyweight with decent enough power.

A loss to Mason at British-European title level would have been bad, bad news for Lennox at that juncture. Being forced to rebuild from a Mason defeat would have been a real challenge. Lennox was already on 'the outside' having opted to work with Maloney which meant that the road back would have been less than easy...just as it was when McCall stunned him.