The LIGHTWEIGHT game: *VOTE CLOSED*

[Crease]

Our fifth thread in the series, following the success of the Heavyweight, Light Heavyweight, Middleweight & Welterweight threads...

This is a game which will be decided by the wisdom of the crowd.

Each of us has our own opinions on who was better than who, or which achievement was greater than others.
But let's bring it all together and allow simple mathematics to decide it all.

The game is this, each poster names and ranks his Top 10 Lightweights of all time and with each ranking comes a certain number of points.
First place gets 10 points, tenth place gets 1 point - and everything fits in between.

Posters are NOT allowed to edit their posts or change their minds as it will effect the overall accumulated points for each fighter.

I will keep a track of the total scoring each time I'm online. This game has a 30-day deadline, after 30 days - the final points totals will be decided.
Our deadline day will be February 1st.

18 Posters declared:
HyacinthusTurnipseed
Crease
Give up
Kalan
dr_devious
elmersalsa
Keko (Decided to fix his 2-way tie between Duran & Gans)
Seamus
Techno89
davie
Ambling Alp II
Tomasino
APerno
Ezzard
cfang
crl333
BroughtonRulesRefuge
SaadOffTheDeck


FINAL Scoreboard: (18 Members have voted)

1st - 157 pts Roberto Duran
2nd - 156 pts Benny Leonard
3rd - 124 pts Joe Gans
4th - 84 pts Henry Armstrong
5th - 74 pts Carlos Ortiz
6th - 72 pts Pernell Whitaker
7th - 70 pts Ike Williams
8th - 69 pts Tony Canzoneri
9th - 29 pts Barney Ross
10th - 26 pts Lou Ambers

11th - 21 pts Joe Brown
12th - 20 pts Packey McFarland
13th - 16 pts Julio Cesar Chavez
14th - 12 pts Manny Pacquaio
15th - 11 pts Freddie Welsh
16th - 9 pts Shane Mosley
17th - 8 pts Edwin Valero
18th - 7 pts Esteban DeJesus
Tied 19th - 5 pts Juan Manuel Marquez
Tied 19th - 5 pts Alexis Arguello
Tied 21st - 4 pts Ken Buchanan
Tied 21st - 4 pts Battling Nelson
23rd - 3 pts Sammy Mandell
24th - 2 pts Edwin Rosario
Tied 25th - 1 pts Ismael Laguna
Tied 25th - 1 pts Rocky Kansas

[Crease]

Hmm, difficult one this. Possibly the most difficult one to date. Armstrong is definitely scoring high again in this for me.
Once again, I'll have to think about it a wee bit before I decide the order of my final 10.

I always tend to draw up a list of 15-18ish fighters and try a find an order for them in each weight class.

[APerno]

Hmm, difficult one this. Possibly the most difficult one to date. Armstrong is definitely scoring high again in this for me.
Once again, I'll have to think about it a wee bit before I decide the order of my final 10.

I always tend to draw up a list of 15-18ish fighters and try a find an order for them in each weight class.

I don’t know – I find Armstrong so hard to rate/where to rate – I think he was best at WW – he won his LW title against Lou Ambers, a second tier fighter on a SD, and then lost the title to Ambers on UD, with only one title defense interim, (Lew Feldman TKO in 1) – I don’t know, I have such a hard time with ‘Hammering Hank’ (alternative nickname my father and his friends used; I never heard ‘Homicide Hank’ when I was a kid).

[HyacinthusTurnipseed]

Hmm, difficult one this. Possibly the most difficult one to date. Armstrong is definitely scoring high again in this for me.
Once again, I'll have to think about it a wee bit before I decide the order of my final 10.

I always tend to draw up a list of 15-18ish fighters and try a find an order for them in each weight class.

I don’t know – I find Armstrong so hard to rate/where to rate – I think he was best at WW – he won his LW title against Lou Ambers, a second tier fighter on a SD, and then lost the title to Ambers on UD, with only one title defense interim, (Lew Feldman TKO in 1) – I don’t know, I have such a hard time with ‘Hammering Hank’ (alternative nickname my father and his friends used; I never heard ‘Homicide Hank’ when I was a kid).

"[S]econd tier fighter" feels a little unkind to Ambers, who did beat Cocoa Kid, Zivic, Canzoneri (2-1) and Arizmendi (2-0-1) as well as Armstrong (1-1) all at least fairly close to the lightweight limit, making him one of the seven or eight candidates for my #10 slot. Though I agree, great as he was elsewhere, Armstrong didn't do enough at the weight specifically to figure in a top ten for me either.

The top three in my mind stand apart slightly in the same way that the top four stand apart at 160, or the top two at heavyweight (or the top one at 147) - though how to order them? After that I feel semi-secure in my choices for 4-9. Don't know whether to just go for it and finish the list now - looking back I probably wouldn't have left Tommy Hearns in my 147 list had I sat on it a bit longer. Hmm...

[APerno]

Hmm, difficult one this. Possibly the most difficult one to date. Armstrong is definitely scoring high again in this for me.
Once again, I'll have to think about it a wee bit before I decide the order of my final 10.

I always tend to draw up a list of 15-18ish fighters and try a find an order for them in each weight class.

I don’t know – I find Armstrong so hard to rate/where to rate – I think he was best at WW – he won his LW title against Lou Ambers, a second tier fighter on a SD, and then lost the title to Ambers on UD, with only one title defense interim, (Lew Feldman TKO in 1) – I don’t know, I have such a hard time with ‘Hammering Hank’ (alternative nickname my father and his friends used; I never heard ‘Homicide Hank’ when I was a kid).

"[S]econd tier fighter" feels a little unkind to Ambers, who did beat Cocoa Kid, Zivic, Canzoneri (2-1) and Arizmendi (2-0-1) as well as Armstrong (1-1) all at least fairly close to the lightweight limit, making him one of the seven or eight candidates for my #10 slot. Though I agree, great as he was elsewhere, Armstrong didn't do enough at the weight specifically to figure in a top ten for me either.

The top three in my mind stand apart slightly in the same way that the top four stand apart at 160, or the top two at heavyweight (or the top one at 147) - though how to order them? After that I feel semi-secure in my choices for 4-9. Don't know whether to just go for it and finish the list now - looking back I probably wouldn't have left Tommy Hearns in my 147 list had I sat on it a bit longer. Hmm...

Yes I overstated - as I sit here preparing my list I realize Ambers deserves more credit than I was giving him. me needs to rethink.

[HyacinthusTurnipseed]

What the hell, I'll get us started.

1. Benny Leonard
2. Joe Gans
3. Roberto Duran
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Packey McFarland
6. Carlos Ortiz
7. Ike Williams
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Freddie Welsh
10. Lou Ambers

Phew!

[APerno]

What the hell, I'll get us started.

1. Benny Leonard
2. Joe Gans
3. Roberto Duran
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Packey McFarland
6. Carlos Ortiz
7. Ike Williams
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Freddie Welsh
10. Lou Ambers

Phew!

You made me look-up Packey McFarland, hell of a record, but the only names I recognized were Jack Britton, whom he seem to handle twice (newspaper decisions) and Freddie Welch, who he drew with twice and won on PTS once.

Now, I don't know what to with the guy; it's was so early on, it is even difficult to get a handle on what were title fights; I got nothing to go on, never read a word about him.

Thanks for the education, a whole new guy to look into, with a 70 - 0 record, no less.

But I did find four more great names (not nicknames) to add to my 'great names list'

Lockport Jimmy Duffy
Harlem Tommy Murphy
Cyclone Johnny Thompson
One Round Hogan (Hogan must have disappointed the crowd, he went the distance with McFarland.)

Check out Fredie Welch's page, there is something going on with his win loss record. I wonder what Boxrec is up to; the numbers don't add up ... http://boxrec.com/boxer/11878

[BoxBuzz]

1.Roberto Duran
2.Joe Gans
3.Benny Leonard
4.Tony Canzoneri
5.Carlos Ortiz
6.Ike Williams
7.Barney Ross
8.Lou Ambers
9.Joe Brown
10. Packey McFarland








Call me obsessive but I couldn't stand to see the word "Leightweight".....so I fixed the spelling.

[Kalan]

No problem BuzzBox... Lightweight tasks for lightweights.

[Crease]

Right, I'll give this a bash, see what I come up with.

1 Roberto Duran
2 Benny Leonard
3 Henry Armstrong
4 Barney Ross
5 Tony Canzoneri
6 Joe Gans
7 Joe Brown
8 Ike Williams
9 Pernell Whitaker
10 Alexis Arguello

[Crease]

Couldn't find places for Shane Mosley or Oscar De La Hoya.

[Give up]

Benny Leonard
Joe Gans
Tony Canzoneri
Carlos Ortiz
Lou Ambers
Roberto Duran
Pernell Whitaker
Ike Williams
Joe Brown
Ismael Laguna
Barney Ross
Freddie Welsch
Esteban De Jesus
Alexis Arguello
Henry Armstrong
Lew Tendler
Oscar De La Hoya
Ken Buchanan
Lew Jenkins
Shane Mosley

[Kalan]

Duran
Mosley
Valero
De Jesus
Chavez
Ortiz
Marquez
Pacquiao
Rosario
Buchanan

[Keko]

I did not think was possible.

Benny Leonard and Roberto Duran, if not in the top 3 then it is a joke to me. The two are certainly in the top three on any serious list.

[dr_devious]

Roberto Duran
Benny Leonard
Joe Gans
Henry Armstrong
Ike Williams
Pernell Whittaker
Tony Canzoneri
Carlos Ortiz
Freddie Welsh
Ken Buchanan

[Crease]

I may have balled up my list, Whitaker should be much higher.

[Crease]

Benny Leonard
Joe Gans
Tony Canzoneri
Carlos Ortiz
Lou Ambers
Roberto Duran
Pernell Whitaker
Ike Williams
Joe Brown
Ismael Laguna

I'm going to score your points to these ten.
I know you've changed your list 3 times, but let's settle on this particular list.

[Give up]

Benny Leonard
Joe Gans
Tony Canzoneri
Carlos Ortiz
Lou Ambers
Roberto Duran
Pernell Whitaker
Ike Williams
Joe Brown
Ismael Laguna

I'm going to score your points to these ten.
I know you've changed your list 3 times, but let's settle on this particular list.

1 times was

Our deadline day will be February 1st.

[elmersalsa]

Here's my top 10 all-time lightweight boxers:
1. Roberto Duran
2. Joe Gans
3. Benny Leonard
4. Ike Williams
5. Pernell Whitaker
6. Joe Brown
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Henry Armstrong
10. Lou Ambers

[Keko]

My top 10 for this great category

1.Benny Leonard
2.Joe Gans,
3.Roberto Duran
4.Pernell Whitaker
5.Carlos Ortiz
6.Tony Canzoneri
7.Ike Williams
8.Henry Armstrong
9.Joe Brown
10.Lou Ambers

[Crease]

1 times was
Our deadline day will be February 1st.

Okay, the points will be added anyway. It just says this at the bottom of your post;
"Last edited by Give up on Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:51 am, edited 3 times in total."

Anyway, moving on...

[HyacinthusTurnipseed]

What the hell, I'll get us started.

1. Benny Leonard
2. Joe Gans
3. Roberto Duran
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Packey McFarland
6. Carlos Ortiz
7. Ike Williams
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Freddie Welsh
10. Lou Ambers

Phew!

You made me look-up Packey McFarland, hell of a record, but the only names I recognized were Jack Britton, whom he seem to handle twice (newspaper decisions) and Freddie Welch, who he drew with twice and won on PTS once.

Now, I don't know what to with the guy; it's was so early on, it is even difficult to get a handle on what were title fights; I got nothing to go on, never read a word about him.

Thanks for the education, a whole new guy to look into, with a 70 - 0 record, no less.

But I did find four more great names (not nicknames) to add to my 'great names list'

Lockport Jimmy Duffy
Harlem Tommy Murphy
Cyclone Johnny Thompson
One Round Hogan (Hogan must have disappointed the crowd, he went the distance with McFarland.)

Check out Fredie Welch's page, there is something going on with his win loss record. I wonder what Boxrec is up to; the numbers don't add up ... http://boxrec.com/boxer/11878

Packey is a hard one to get a full assessment of as he was kinda too big for lightweight for at least some of his career, he never won a title and has a record with maybe a little too much quantity over quality. And he was out of the game in his late 20s where other might have finally taken advantage of their high standing at that point. Still, he got the best of Welsh four times (who I knew I'd be rating highly) - being the better fighter in the two official draws as well as the wins. Maybe #5 is a little high though.

A couple of unusual names I came across recently that you might not have on your list:

KO Mars (opponent of Lew Tendler and Sammy Mandell. Also fought someone called "Patsy Cline". Also, bit of a misleading name as he only had 4 recorded KOs in more than 100 fights!)
http://boxrec.com/boxer/52370

Honey Mellody (briefly Welterweight Champion of the World)
http://boxrec.com/boxer/56891

[Give up]

1 times was
Our deadline day will be February 1st.

Okay, the points will be added anyway. It just says this at the bottom of your post;
"Last edited by Give up on Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:51 am, edited 3 times in total."

Anyway, moving on...

1 times the order of rankings and the rest were black letters Sherlock

[Crease]

And so our first update, seven Managers input and our results look like this:

CURRENT Scoreboard: (7 Members have voted)

1st - 61.5 pts Roberto Duran
2nd - 56 pts Benny Leonard
3rd - 48.5 pts Joe Gans
4th - 31 pts Pernell Whitaker
5th - 30 pts Carlos Ortiz
6th - 29 pts Tony Canzoneri
7th - 27 pts Ike Williams
8th - 20 pts Henry Armstrong
9th - 13 pts Joe Brown
Tied 10th - 9 pts Shane Mosley
Tied 10th - 9 pts Lou Ambers

12th - 8 pts Edwin Valero
Tied 13th - 7 pts Barney Ross
Tied 13th - 7 pts Esteban DeJesus
Tied 15th - 6 pts Packey McFarland
Tied 15th - 6 pts Julio Cesar Chavez
Tied 17th - 4 pts Juan Manuel Marquez
Tied 17th - 4 pts Freddie Welsh
19th - 3 pts Manny Pacquaio
Tied 20th - 2 pts Edwin Rosario
Tied 20th - 2 pts Ken Buchanan

Tied 22nd - 1 pts Alexis Arguello
Tied 22nd - 1 pts Ismael Laguna

[Seamus]

Half points ?