Sugar Ray Robinson v Marcel Cerdan

[thepocketrocket]

By the late 40's, early 50's, i could really see Cerdan giving him hell...we missed out in one of the most amazing fights ever due to a plane crash (Cerdan destroys LaMotta in the rematch to set it up)

How do you think it would have gone?

[klompton]

You lost me with "Cerdan destroys LaMotta in the rematch..." I understand making a fantasy matchup but am I also supposed to imagine Cerdan as being more formidable than he actually was??

[thepocketrocket]

You lost me with "Cerdan destroys LaMotta in the rematch..." I understand making a fantasy matchup but am I also supposed to imagine Cerdan as being more formidable than he actually was??

Cerdan bust his shoulder in the first round against LaMotta, LaMotta had feigned injury to get out of the original rematch....maybe watching Raging Bull has made you think Cerdan was just LaMotta fodder, but that is OK!

[klompton]

You lost me with "Cerdan destroys LaMotta in the rematch..." I understand making a fantasy matchup but am I also supposed to imagine Cerdan as being more formidable than he actually was??

Cerdan bust his shoulder in the first round against LaMotta, LaMotta had feigned injury to get out of the original rematch....maybe watching Raging Bull has made you think Cerdan was just LaMotta fodder, but that is OK!

Wrong on all points. Cerdan was getting brutalized BEFORE he injured his shoulder, LaMotta broke his hand in the fight meaning he was one handed too (he just didnt puss out), it was rematch that was postponed, etc. If the implication is that LaMotta was scared of Cerdan resulting in his postponement then how do you explain Cerdan refusing to fight LaMotta who had been a top contender at mw much longer than cerdan unless LaMotta paid him $20,000 in addition to cerdans purse? Lamotta then went on to bet $10,000 of his own money on himself against cerdan and won. That $10,000 he bet on himself had the same buying power in 1949 as over $100,000 today. So you tell me, sound like LaMotta was the least bit concerned about his chances against a guy who hadnt even fought the best mws in France much less the world?

[thepocketrocket]

Cerdan busts his shoulder after getting thrown on the floor in the first, and you call him a pussy, while equating it with a sore hand from LaMotta.It is too stupid to even counter.

Jesus...lay off Raging Bull mate. Looking up the subject elsewhere I see you talking the same crap in 2011. Cerdan couldn't lift his arm after the third, yet fought on with one arm against Jake.

I don't mind someone saying they fancied LaMotta in a rematch, but downplaying that because they want to suck off Jake is beneath the quality of this forum.

[klompton]

You supposed that Cerdan would slaughter LaMotta in a rematch. Who is sucking who off? You posited that LaMotta getting injured prior to the rematch (which you thought happened before the first fight) equated to LaMotta being scared of Cerdan. Who is sucking who off? You now contend that having an injured shoulder is somehow worse than having a broken hand. Who is sucking who off. You lay heavily on Cerdan's excuse for losing but try to minimize LaMotta's injury which he powered through and which can easily be seen photos taken in his locker room after the fight of his hand swollen twice its normal size. Obviously you are trying to shore up your mistakes and fantastical scenario. Sorry the facts dont agree with you. And why exactly would LaMotta be afraid of Cerdan? He had fought better competition than Cerdan and had beaten Cerdan easier than many of his other opponents. I dont know anyone who would favor Cerdan over the bigger, better, and harder hitting Robinson and yet LaMotta fought Robinson six times but according to you hes supposed to be scared of Cerdan? Dream on. Cerdan wouldnt have won a rematch with LaMotta so your scenario is bogus but had he skipped the LaMotta fight and fought Robinson he would have been stopped and my prediction is it would not only have been one sided but would have taken Cerdan's standing down several pegs considering much of the mystique around him is not based on his meager accomplishments but on the question of what might have happened had he survived. Like I said, it was LaMotta chasing Cerdan, not the other way around and LaMotta not only was forced to pay out of his own pocket to get that fight but he also bet what was a kings ransom at the time on himself to win. That doesnt sound like a guy who was overly fearful of his chance of winning.

[cfang]

Mmm its a tricky one this. Cerdan's record is certainly not as impressive in terms of names as jake's. On the other hand cerdan was certainly a harder puncher. I think he's a bit underestimated on these forums generally. Was Jake slipping a bit by the time he won the title? They were the same age but Jake had been in a lot more wars and had more miles on the clock. Also he struggled in his later fights. I think Jake is probably the greater fighter but I agree, I thin Cerdan would have won the rematch, probably on points, certainly not easy fight.

Oh and jake wasn't scared of anyone, I think thats a fact.

[klompton]

I don't think punching power matters because Cerdan wasn't knocking out LaMotta. Cerdan never showed he could weather the kind of pressure LaMotta, even a fading LaMotta like the one who fought the St. Valentines Day Massacre, could bring to Cerdan. People act like Cerdan was so great but based on what? His films? Hes fighting total nobodies in his films he better look great. He fought three top guys before LaMotta: Zale, Abrams, Williams. Abrams and Williams were past their prime and Zale was completely shot. LaMotta, was the first full fledged world class middleweight that Cerdan fought anywhere near his prime and he lost and people act like it was a fluke or something. Beyond that one fight Cerdan's resume is as thin as wet toilet paper. Regardless, even if you believe he beats LaMotta in a rematch which is very very debateable Sugar Ray Robinson was an entirely different and more dangerous proposition for several reasons. He may not have been as heavy or as strong as LaMotta but he was taller, had a longer reach, was faster, hit a LOT harder, was a better boxer, had better defense, was just as tough, should I go on? Cerdan isn't beating Robinson at either WW or MW. I would pick Robinson to absolutely massacre Cerdan. Ive said it before and I'll say it again: I'm not even sure Cerdan beats guys like Villemain and Dauthille. He certainly didn't fight them for a reason when those fights made a lot of sense in France, particularly Villemain who fought and defeated better competition than Cerdan did.

[thepocketrocket]

It has to be remembered that Villemain beat LaMotta in his first fight after Cerdan, and that Jake's results post Cerdan weren't great (to say the least). Jake had had a lot of wars, and beating the one armed man in Cerdan doesn't mean it was the LaMotta who had been avoided for so many years. Cerdan didn't have the resume of Jake, but the beat down of Zale showed that this was maybe his time. Less of a resume, but less miles on the clock. He was superb against Zale so being written off as a Eurobum with no heart is daft.

It is a shame that this is all hypothetical....damn waste of life.

[Ambling Alp II]

OK, lets try to keep it civil everybody.

I certainly could see Cerdan beating LaMotta in the rematch but it is by no means a done deal.

Cerdan was a very talented fighter and it would have not have been easy fight for Robinson. However, in the end Robinson would have beaten him.

[Kalan]

By the late 40's, early 50's, i could really see Cerdan giving him hell...we missed out in one of the most amazing fights ever due to a plane crash (Cerdan destroys LaMotta in the rematch to set it up)

How do you think it would have gone?

If Cerdan was at his best he would have stopped LaMotta in 10 and beaten Robinson UD in 15... He lost the title because he was injured and promised to KO Cerdan in the rematch... Unfortunately he died in an airplane crash and couldn't carry out his those plans.. LaMotta was an accidental champ.

[klompton]

Lol at Cerdan stopping LaMotta. LaMotta was no shot Zale. Cerdan couldnt even stop all of the soft touch Euro trash he feasted on. He wasnt stopping LaMotta. LaMotta stops him again in a rematch and Robinson knocks him out cold in embarrassing fashion. I was fortunate enough to be friends with Tony Zales sparring partner who sparred with Cerdan as well. He had seen LaMotta and Robinson up close in person (and turned down an offer from Robinsons people for management) and had been in the ring with Zale and Cerdan, who he had a lot of nice things to say about, and he said no chance Cerdan beats LaMotta, injury or not, Robinson, or Zale closer to his prime. He simply wasnt on that level. Allen Rosenfeld who wrote the book on Charley Burley was there in person the night LaMotta beat Cerdan and he agreed. He said there as no chance that Cerdan could have beaten LaMotta that night and reminded me that BEFORE Cerdan went down and was supposedly injured he was getting battered all over the ring by LaMotta. People always ignore that fact and say LaMotta "threw" Cerdan to the canvas injuring him. Well, that occurence is on film for us to see and you can see that Cerdan is getting worked over is wobbly and on the run when LaMotta windmills him to the canvas. You can argue it wasnt a clean knockdown but to pretend LaMotta fouled him, no, Cerdan went down because he was wobbly, in full retreat, and LaMotta was mauling him. But I guess getting beaten all over the ring was part of Cerdans plan?

[Kalan]

Cerdan overpowers Robinson. He beats Ray up, and pounds on him like Basilio, Fullmer, and Ralph Jones did when they beat Robinson... It would be more like Ralph Jones because he was faster and slicker than Fullmer Basilio, and Turpin were when they beat Robinson... Robinson refused to give Jones a rematch because he knew he couldn't handle his pressure style.. Robinson wears down like he did vs Maxim when he took a beating in the 13th and quit... refusing to come out for the 14th to face more Maxim..