Ali pre draft career V post career

[Grant]

Ok given that he went far too long but thats another story.
His second reign was suely the better of the two.
In retrospect if you had the power when would you have retired him?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Ok given that he went far too long but thats another story.
His second reign was suely the better of the two.
In retrospect if you had the power when would you have retired him?

- Ali the grrl named Sue getting battered, not better, but he well befits the variegated myths of miscreation on this board.

When he ducked the $5mil guarantee from an Indonesian oilman to stage the Foreman rematch there to be battered with 100 rabbits by caveman Wepner, that's when he should've quit. Doc ferdie already informed his team he sustained too much damage by Foreman so should steer clear.

Who didn't batter him post Foreman? It becomes an ever painful effort for any sentient being to watch his lack of defense. Reasons unique to his fans cause them to rhapsodize about this in their glee club meetings. Eventually even Ferdie had to jump the leaking ship of inhumanity being dished out for public entertainment.

Very sad to see, the greatest unwritten tragedy in modern sports history.

[SteveO]

Ok given that he went far too long but thats another story.
His second reign was suely the better of the two.
In retrospect if you had the power when would you have retired him?

In my opinion Ali should have retired after 'The Thrilla In Manila'.
That was one of the greatest heavyweight title fights of all time and would have been a fitting end to his amazing career.

[handsofstone]

Big fan of Ali but Ive never enjoyed his post exile fights, even the Frazier and Foreman fights were overated IMO, his spoiling tactics were too much to bare

[APerno]

'The Thrilla In Manila' should have been the end - had he left the game then, there would have been more glory and less tragedy. - I suspect (but even modern medicine doesn't know) that he suffered more damage in the last five years of his career than in the first 15. - Although the latest anti-sparring argument suggests that's not true.

[Nile4000]

Definitely after Thrilla on Manila. Though I feel his retirement would end up hanging with the likes of Rick James.

[Ambling Alp II]

His career was really in distinct stages. From 1960-1963, he was an talented up and comer.
From 1964-1967, he put it all together and was the greatest heavyweight ever. He as dominating title reign of anyone in any weight.
For 1970-1975, he obviously had slowed down and didn't have the phenomenal reflexes he once had after the 3 and 1/2 year layoff. He was pretty rusty in the first few fights back but gradually got rid of the ring rust.
The Frazier and Foreman fights were about as good as it gets in the heavyweight division.
After the 3rd Frazier fight, he was never the same. He would have declined with age anyway, but the fights with Foreman and Frazier sped up his decline.

[Kalan]

Post draft he was much better... He was bigger and stronger and preserved his speed when he came back at 28 for Quarry weighing 213.. And he fought much bigger and better Heavyweights in the 70's then in the 60's.. Ali had a lot of time to correct his mistakes like George Foreman did..

When George took 10 years off he improved his pacing, patience, and tactical game quite a bit -- and just from thinking about how you got hit and various ways you messed up, things occur to you over time that improve your game.. Ali only got floored with left hooks once post draft.. but twice pre-draft -- and after the Bonavena fight he pointed out that his punching power improved a lot and he was a lot stronger and more solid .

[cfang]

I think retiring after the foreman fight would have been perfect. then foreman would have been champ, then maybe lyle or young and then holmes. Also probably wouldn't have had the health issues. Would have been perfect for sure.

[Kalan]

It certainly would have been perfect...and Ali actually planned to quit Boxing after the Foreman fight, but he was only 32...

And when you're young and at the height of your fame... and at the height of your earning and power... and you've finally got everything you've always worked for -- for so many years... and you're finally in the most enviable position in Boxing yet again... why quit??? ... Why abandon your enviable status???

Gene Tunney was asked why he would quit Boxing when he was so young -- and at the height of his earning potential.. "Because I've had 84 professional fights. That's around 20 more than I planned on.. I've achieved everything I set out to accomplish when I started my pro career against Bobby Dawson 13 years ago. I had a long amateur career and I think I've mastered the game to my capabilities.. I don't want to exploit Boxing just because I can.

It's been a wonderful adventure, but the world is bigger than a boxing ring.. There's many things in life that I've never been able to do because I didn't want to cheat the public by not putting the best Tunney out there.. Now I have the money and time to do everything I've ever dreamed of."

[Ambling Alp II]

I think retiring after the foreman fight would have been perfect. then foreman would have been champ, then maybe lyle or young and then holmes. Also probably wouldn't have had the health issues. Would have been perfect for sure.

Then we never would have the 3rd Ali-Frazier fight. He should have retired after that. Of course hindsight is 20/20.

[Kalan]

Ali-Frazier III stunk the planet out anyway IMHO... Both Ali and Frazier were fat as Hell and in no condition to fight...especially Frazier.. Smokin' was sliding into a deep abyss that changed his post Boxing life for the worst -- a real fright of a life... They both should have been retired for a long time.

We never saw Gene Tunney's fights with Sharkey, Schmeling, Baer, Louis, and Braddock -- and we sure as Hell don't miss them.. Neither did Tunney.

[fanman]

the foreman fight was his crowning glory, the thrilla in manila was a great fight but damaged ali, if he wasnt a little damaged already. taking those hooks from frazier did him no good. i think he was still great going in to manila and would have beat any man in the world. but not after.

[Kalan]

Ali would have taken a brutal sh!t kicking from Larry Holmes that night... A perfectly conditioned Holmes easily stopped Rodney Bobick to go 17-0.. Ali was fat-n-out-of-shape and didn't need any kind of fitness or conditioning to beat a pathetically defunct Frazier.

Ali didn't actually take much punishment from Frazier in Manila like the myth he created perpetrates.. No bad swelling as in the 1st fight.. Ali feigned a lot of hurt in the mid rounds to exhaust Frazier. Ali knew damned well from spy reports that Frazier was getting gassed after a few rounds of sparring, couldn't punch, and was WAAAY FAT!!! Smokin' was in geeeeaaaaaawwwwd awful condition and couldn't train properly to beat anybody. Ali also heard reports that Frazier was faking his way through camp and had terrible vision.

So to make sure Frazier exhausted himself as much as possible -- and add drama to the fight -- Ali covered up and took super weak punches from the spent, fat Frazier.. This allowed Ali to conserve himself for the 14th round assault where he tore into Smokin' like a human punching bag and viciously tried to knock him out cold.. Ali lacked the power for that, but he was damaging JF to no good end so Futch did the only possible thing and stopped it.

Frazier was done winning any fights. He wouldn't have been competitive except fighting very small sub-cruiserweights who were washed up themselves... After running and faking it against Foreman for a few rounds he retired -- but you know he wasn't right and had a lot of problems.

[fanman]

i do enjoy your posts kalan, but i dont quite share your analysis of manila. that was a life and death struggle if ever i saw one, though you may have a point that both were a little past prime.
theres times in that fight ali is paralysed from body shots, getting beaten on the ropes, yet somehow summoned a last reserve. ali certainly looked in glowing condition before hand.
i will investigate your point about a young larry holmes, though we know he was still 3 years away from a title shot.

[BoxBuzz]

Ali would have taken a brutal sh!t kicking from Larry Holmes that night... A perfectly conditioned Holmes easily stopped Rodney Bobick to go 17-0.. Ali was fat-n-out-of-shape and didn't need any kind of fitness or conditioning to beat a pathetically defunct Frazier.

Ali didn't actually take much punishment from Frazier in Manila like the myth he created perpetrates.. No bad swelling as in the 1st fight.. Ali feigned a lot of hurt in the mid rounds to exhaust Frazier. Ali knew damned well from spy reports that Frazier was getting gassed after a few rounds of sparring, couldn't punch, and was WAAAY FAT!!! Smokin' was in geeeeaaaaaawwwwd awful condition and couldn't train properly to beat anybody. Ali also heard reports that Frazier was faking his way through camp and had terrible vision.

So to make sure Frazier exhausted himself as much as possible -- and add drama to the fight -- Ali covered up and took super weak punches from the spent, fat Frazier.. This allowed Ali to conserve himself for the 14th round assault where he tore into Smokin' like a human punching bag and viciously tried to knock him out cold.. Ali lacked the power for that, but he was damaging JF to no good end so Futch did the only possible thing and stopped it.

Frazier was done winning any fights. He wouldn't have been competitive except fighting very small sub-cruiserweights who were washed up themselves... After running and faking it against Foreman for a few rounds he retired -- but you know he wasn't right and had a lot of problems.

Wait a second, he couldn't have beat small HW's? What about that draw with big ol' Jumbo?

[Kalan]

That wasn't an even fight against the unknown punching bag Cummings -- who never came close to making the world scene... That was pity scoring.

[Kalan]

And fanman.... You say Ali was paralyzed from body shots???? ... Man, you're really buying into the myth.. Frazier was done.. He couldn't even paralyze the inept Joe Bugner over 2 years earlier.. He was 3 X as spent by the time Manila rolled around.. Look at his last fight with Foreman.. Joe ran and faked his way through a few rounds to pick up another paycheck before retiring -- and couldn't even begin to get his weight down anymore... so you gotta be kidding... Obviously money problems prompted an attempted comeback at 37... That attempt failed before it got started.

Foreman knew his comeback would work because he had a good plan -- and he still had his health... much like the elderly Holmes when he came back.